A point-by-point breakdown of the first half of that book I was telling you about.

Tue Mar 8 08:40:39 CST 2016

No, I just lifted this para from the link Monte just posted from nplusone
mag.
I separated it out because of conspiracy thread and paranoia and because
the plist
has considered Hofstadter here before......

https://nplusonemag.com/online-only/book-review/suspicious-minds/

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Mark, is this your personal take on the man? I can't find it anywhere else
> online. If so, it is woefully misinformed about the substance of his
> scholarship, the level of respect accorded him in academic circles, and the
> quality of his myriad, lifelong, intimate connections to the networks which
> he made it his life's work to investigate (or, as some more "paranoid" or
> activist observers might put it, expose).
>
> J
>
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 5:03 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The overarching conspiracy theorizing historian who wrote Tragedy and
>> Hope. Originally 1966. Who claimed to be in touch
>> with members of the innermost circle.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The interest in this is a bit surprising considering the general
>>> aversion on the list to conspiracy theories, though admittedly not by all
>>> p-listers. Am I wrong in wondering if that aversion is less settled than it
>>> seemed.  I knew nothing of this book until this week’s mention here; but
>>> just started reading the introduction via Monte’s reference, and find it
>>> interesting that Oglesby was unhindered by cultural restraint in talking
>>> about conspiracies:
>>>
>>>    "This book proposes to show that Dallas and Watergate are
>>> intrinsically linked conspiracies in a hidden drama of coup and
>>> countercoup     which represents the life of an inner oligarchic power
>>> sphere, and "invisible government," capable of any act in the pursuit of
>>> its objectives, that sets itself above the law and beyond the moral rule: a
>>> clandestine American state, perhaps an embryonic police state.”
>>>
>>> I am just started but does he connect the Bretton Woods conference to
>>> the Yankees?
>>> > On Mar 7, 2016, at 4:27 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Also online for some years at
>>> https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?9223-The-Yankee-and-Cowboy-War#.Vt3xjDgrKhc
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Not self-published. Real publisher. Usually OP now means a rights
>>> problem. Whoever owns the rights is in dispute or is saying No.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I don't quite follow all of this, maybe because I don't know all of
>>> the backstory. I'm deep into the book now, and it is fascinating, as
>>> gripping as any thriller. Not being in the publishing industry, I wanted to
>>> ask if the reason it's out of print is possibly because it needs a lot of
>>> work? Lots of typos and maybe some editing, as well. Has the feel of being
>>> self-published...
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 5:45 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Oglesby
>>> >
>>> > Jerky throws us a VERY anarchic curve ball. Looking to refresh myself
>>> and learn more
>>> > about Carl Oglesby, I go to wikipedia. Then it gets interesting.
>>> >
>>> > Notice that Kirkpatrick Sale, TRP's old buddy is quoted about Carl's
>>> famous anti-
>>> > war speech in late November 1965. Means he was there. We know TRP later
>>> > has a letter about not attending another one but one wonders if he was
>>> at this one.
>>> > Close to Sales then, publishing recently in mainstream stuff--SEPost
>>> and
>>> > NYTimes Mag soon after because Sales. And writing and publishing Lot
>>> 49.
>>> >
>>> > But even more interesting to me. Look at the way Carl's blend of
>>> political ideas
>>> > differs from standard SDS, new Left thinking. (He was to be driven out
>>> of a
>>> > leadership position because he would not track standard
>>> Marxist--Leninist
>>> > Left notions, this sez.) ...Now, a PS first: who else's social
>>> critiques as we pick
>>> > them out in our reading aren't standard Marxist?-- as we've said here.
>>> > (This is only associative non-logic I know but keep following the
>>> bouncing ball).
>>> >
>>> > Speculate with me more: as outlined here, Carl's eclectic mix of
>>> ideas--
>>> > might remind of emblematic scenes from Lot 49??...the Young Americans
>>> for Freedom,
>>> > Oedipa's present; libertarianism = cousin of anarchism in that work;
>>> the scene
>>> > about having one's ideas corporatized in Lot 49; Carl's strong
>>> anti-bureaucracy strain,--
>>> > (Heavy in GR, of course) The John Birch Society nod in Lot 49-as nod
>>> to freedom.
>>> > And more.
>>> >  "in a strong sense, the Old Right and the New Left are morally and
>>> politically coordinate":[5]
>>> > I suggest there is OLD RIGHT in Lot 49 under political lensing.
>>> >
>>> > And remember decades later in the Slow Learner introduction how TRP
>>> said the New Left
>>> > failed to connect with real worker's concerns so failed.
>>> >
>>> > Bet they all thought it out together, separately, TRP and Kirkpatrick
>>> closest thinking partners
>>> > then....
>>> >
>>> > Why is this book OP?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > KONSPIRACY KLASSICS CORNER!
>>> > THE YANKEE AND COWBOY WAR
>>> > The Astonishing Link between the JFK Assassination and the deposing of
>>> Nixon
>>> > Conspiracies from Dallas to Watergate and Beyond
>>> > by Carl Oglesby
>>> >
>>> > A few years back, a friend loaned me his copy of Carl Oglesby's The
>>> Yankee and Cowboy War, and after reading it I was stunned that I had
>>> previously neither read it nor even heard about it. I found it both moving
>>> and profoundly impressive. In his masterful dissection of the mid-70's
>>> American political milieu, Oglesby gives us nothing less than an absolutely
>>> convincing operating model of the forces clashing behind the scenes in
>>> post-World War II America, as well as a detailed diagnosis of exactly where
>>> and why things went terribly wrong. He presents valuable ideas that have
>>> found their way into the works of later authors, most notably Sidney
>>> Blumenthal, whose 1986 best-seller The Rise of the Counter-Establishment
>>> reads almost like a sequel.
>>> >
>>> > I believe The Yankee Cowboy War is essential reading for anyone
>>> searching for honest answers about the origins of our current condition.
>>> Unfortunately, the book is long out of print. I also understand that most
>>> of you reading this are busy people who don't have time to read every
>>> worthy book that there is to read. Therefore, I have decided to use this
>>> space to publish my "reading notes", taken during my second reading, so
>>> that interested parties can get the gist of the book's main theses, the
>>> numerous topics it covers, as well as the individuals and events discussed
>>> in it.
>>> >
>>> > I will be posting these reading notes periodically over the next few
>>> days. Obviously, this is a poor substitute for reading the book, itself,
>>> but it's a decent primer, and for the researcher in a hurry, it should do
>>> in a pinch. Watch for further installments, coming soon!
>>> >
>>> > PART ONE: THE CLANDESTINE ELITES
>>> >
>>> > · Watergate and the JFK assassination were not isolated incidents, but
>>> linked parts of a secret war between two American Elites: the Yankees
>>> (Eastern Establishment) and the Cowboys (Sunbelt, New Money,
>>> Counter-Establishment).
>>> >
>>> > · A hidden drama of coup and counter-coup, intrinsically linked
>>> conspiracies, inner oligarchic power sphere, invisible gov’t, above the
>>> law, beyond moral rule… a clandestine American state, embryonic police
>>> state.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > · Operation Garden Plot, COINTELPRO, Operation Chaos.
>>> >
>>> > · CIA contracting ITT to oust Allende in Chile is an example of
>>> ruthlessness, just like crimes and cover-up at Dealy Plaza and the
>>> Watergate.
>>> >
>>> > · What are the origins of these internal government divisions?
>>> >
>>> > 1. CIA intel division vs. CIA operational division.
>>> > 2. Pentagon vs. FBI
>>> > 3. CIA vs. Pentagon
>>> > 4. CIA vs. FBI
>>> > 5. POTUS and all of the above
>>> >
>>> > · Destabilization of the post-Reconstruction unity, which, in turn,
>>> was made stronger by FDR in the WWII period (post-war consensus). 60’s,
>>> 70’s tumult.
>>> >
>>> > · The intensification of clandestine, illicit measures against racial
>>> and anti-war dissent coincided with the use of these methods within the
>>> state as post-war consensus failed.
>>> >
>>> > · Dallas/Watergate: breakdown of the incumbent national coalition…
>>> Greater Northeast powers with the greater Southwest powers, the post-Civil
>>> War, post-Reconstruction coalition, the New Deal, the Yankees and Cowboys.
>>> >
>>> > · Cold War tensions between two separate and distinct and
>>> contradictory domains of World Historical Truth: Northeast “détente” and
>>> Southwest “militarism”.
>>> >
>>> > · In Europe, we could evidently live with communism, whereas in the
>>> Third World, we evidently could not. “Spheres of “détente and violence”… an
>>> untenable paradox.
>>> >
>>> > · When it became clear that the USA couldn’t win militarily in the
>>> Third World without risking war in the North Atlantic, consensus dissolved.
>>> >
>>> > · Dallas, Nov 22, was an elite power collision, both sensed and real.
>>> >
>>> > · Dichotomous Disunity: The Southwest was pro-escalation, on balance,
>>> Frontierist, taking the China-lobby position.
>>> >
>>> > · Dichotomous Disunity: The Northeast was pro-pullback, on balance,
>>> Atlanticist, CFR, NATO-conscious position.
>>> >
>>> > · YANKEES:
>>> > 1. David Rockefeller
>>> > 2. Ivy League
>>> > 3. Exclusive clubs of Manhattan, Boston and Georgetown
>>> > 4. CFR, Round Table
>>> > 5. Eleanor Roosevelt
>>> > 6. The Dulles Brothers
>>> > 7. Massive Retaliation Doctrine
>>> > 8. The Kennedys
>>> >
>>> > · COWBOYS:
>>> > 1. Howard Hughes
>>> > 2. NFL
>>> > 3. Exclusive clubs of New Orleans, Dallas and Orange County (both
>>> sides)
>>> > 4. LBJ
>>> > 5. Conally and Hunt
>>> > 6. Bay of Pigs team
>>> > 7. Nixon
>>> >
>>> > · The persistence of Civil War splits in the current situation.
>>> >
>>> > · Carroll Quigley had already talked of these themes before Oglesby in
>>> his Tragedy and Hope.
>>> >
>>> > · Disintegration of Wall Street influence as the Southwest and Far
>>> West influence increase, commensurate with a dissolving of the Middle Class
>>> and a rise in bourgeoisie.
>>> >
>>> > · Northeast Establishment: Semi-aristocratic.
>>> >
>>> > · Southwest Counter-Establishment: Petit Bourgeois.
>>> >
>>> > · Southwestern money was dependent on government investment: oil,
>>> military, aviation, space, natural resources. This is a paradox.
>>> >
>>> > · Oglesby argues that the Atlanticist / Frontierist split is primal,
>>> and that it runs under everything… 1960.
>>> >
>>> > · YANKEE:
>>> > 1. Global Scope
>>> > 2. At home in the Great World
>>> > 3. Regards it as a whole, in context
>>> > 4. Good World Order = Relations with allies
>>> > 5. Relations with Western Democracies
>>> > 6. USA seen as a continuation of Europe’s culture
>>> > 7. Europe as key world theater
>>> > 8. Fate of USA linked with Europe
>>> > 9. White cultural destiny transcending boundaries of nation
>>> > 10. The West = One World
>>> > 11. Monopolists who broke faith with the Vietnam project because of
>>> the high probability of failure
>>> > 12. Monopolist East Coast Establishment
>>> >
>>> > · COWBOY:
>>> > 1. Ties to Europe NOT obvious
>>> > 2. Old World vs. New World
>>> > 3. Rejects Atlanticism in favor of Frontierism
>>> > 4. Expanding wilderness frontier and “Pacific strategy”
>>> > 5. Cowboy entrepreneurs fought to keep faith alive because of the
>>> necessity of success
>>> > 6. Tycoon (Western)
>>> > 7. They supported Johnson and Nixon all the way towards a final
>>> military solution
>>> > 8. “Only the strong survive”
>>> >
>>> > · What were the roots of the union in the first place? The frontier
>>> which allowed for the continued emergence of  entrepreneurs long after the
>>> establishment of the first monopolies.
>>> >
>>> > · Marx never studied states that had so much frontier.
>>> >
>>> > · The frontier was a reprieve for democracy… and capitalism! All it
>>> took was genocide.
>>> >
>>> > · Energies of expansion took two centuries… finally taking Alaska and
>>> Hawaii. We have no way of knowing how important this expansionism was in
>>> keeping the natural American Cowboy/Yankee divide under control.
>>> >
>>> > · The success of various Asian revolutionary movements proved a
>>> perplexing dilemma to the USA. With Asians successfully defending
>>> themselves as self-modernizing, post-colonial entities against American
>>> influence, America had run out of frontier.
>>> >
>>> > · To comprehend the assassination of JFK (as with Lincoln) is to
>>> understand a basic event in modern government. It’s a necessity to
>>> understand… an “absolute pre-condition” to self-government, the first step
>>> towards the restoration of a legitimate state.
>>> >
>>> > · Today’s frontier is the fact that there is no more frontier.
>>> >
>>> > PART TWO COMING SOON!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > www.innergroovemusic.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>
>>
>>
>
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