A point-by-point breakdown of the first half of that book I was telling you about.

Tue Mar 8 12:06:01 CST 2016

I would state and continue arguing at the Read and whenever, that P's vision 
Is an overwhelmingly "moral" one but not in the sense of anyone's morality clauses. 

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On Mar 8, 2016, at 12:27 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> Pynchon does mix both of these genres into V, GR and ATD .  I think the basic take( the take of the writer being reviewed)  of these 2 genres is insightful, but In both cases Pynchon confounds these normative cultural approaches to these genres. His detectives are not about returning society to a benign stasis, and his spies, at least in my reading are not so much about exposing the crimes of the state as about exposing the crimes of other spies and rogue agents of a state that has no unified policy other than the one being carried out by its often conflicting agents. The state itself is a phantom. There is no sense of acountability to an overarching value system or nation.The magna carta, constitution, popular national  narratives, contract law, christian or other ethical values are all completely and blithely ignored by these agents. The only moral values applied to the world In P’s work are generally coming from individuals, usually those being fucked over by various powers, or those attempting to stop specific crimes. The most they can do appears trivial in the larger picture but there is always a modest or dramatic  internal change distributed among many preterite characters that is worth considering both in its failures and realizations, and which functions as protagonist.
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2016, at 8:14 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> "In spy novels, the state itself often becomes an antagonist, which explains why leftist and radical authors like Eric Ambler, Graham Greene, and Thomas Pynchon have been so fond of them, whereas the detective novel has remained a primarily conservative genre." 
>> 
>> https://nplusonemag.com/online-only/book-review/suspicious-minds/
>> 
>> Pynchon shows us much more of detectives detecting than of spies spying. And, per recent "wilderness of mirrors" posts here: the definitive books of John le Carre (whom the article mentions only in passing), usually characterized as spy fiction, actually center on counterintelligence efforts to detect internal betrayals rather than on spies in the field. Which suggests that the review (if not the book under review) is too neat by half, if not more.
>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 5:03 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The overarching conspiracy theorizing historian who wrote Tragedy and Hope. Originally 1966. Who claimed to be in touch 
>> with members of the innermost circle. 
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley
>> 
>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> The interest in this is a bit surprising considering the general aversion on the list to conspiracy theories, though admittedly not by all p-listers. Am I wrong in wondering if that aversion is less settled than it seemed.  I knew nothing of this book until this week’s mention here; but just started reading the introduction via Monte’s reference, and find it interesting that Oglesby was unhindered by cultural restraint in talking about conspiracies:
>> 
>>   "This book proposes to show that Dallas and Watergate are intrinsically linked conspiracies in a hidden drama of coup and countercoup     which represents the life of an inner oligarchic power sphere, and "invisible government," capable of any act in the pursuit of its objectives, that sets itself above the law and beyond the moral rule: a clandestine American state, perhaps an embryonic police state.”
>> 
>> I am just started but does he connect the Bretton Woods conference to the Yankees?
>>> On Mar 7, 2016, at 4:27 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Also online for some years at https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?9223-The-Yankee-and-Cowboy-War#.Vt3xjDgrKhc
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Not self-published. Real publisher. Usually OP now means a rights problem. Whoever owns the rights is in dispute or is saying No.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't quite follow all of this, maybe because I don't know all of the backstory. I'm deep into the book now, and it is fascinating, as gripping as any thriller. Not being in the publishing industry, I wanted to ask if the reason it's out of print is possibly because it needs a lot of work? Lots of typos and maybe some editing, as well. Has the feel of being self-published...
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 5:45 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Oglesby
>>> 
>>> Jerky throws us a VERY anarchic curve ball. Looking to refresh myself and learn more
>>> about Carl Oglesby, I go to wikipedia. Then it gets interesting.
>>> 
>>> Notice that Kirkpatrick Sale, TRP's old buddy is quoted about Carl's famous anti-
>>> war speech in late November 1965. Means he was there. We know TRP later
>>> has a letter about not attending another one but one wonders if he was at this one.
>>> Close to Sales then, publishing recently in mainstream stuff--SEPost and
>>> NYTimes Mag soon after because Sales. And writing and publishing Lot 49.
>>> 
>>> But even more interesting to me. Look at the way Carl's blend of political ideas
>>> differs from standard SDS, new Left thinking. (He was to be driven out of a
>>> leadership position because he would not track standard Marxist--Leninist
>>> Left notions, this sez.) ...Now, a PS first: who else's social critiques as we pick
>>> them out in our reading aren't standard Marxist?-- as we've said here.
>>> (This is only associative non-logic I know but keep following the bouncing ball).
>>> 
>>> Speculate with me more: as outlined here, Carl's eclectic mix of ideas--
>>> might remind of emblematic scenes from Lot 49??...the Young Americans for Freedom,
>>> Oedipa's present; libertarianism = cousin of anarchism in that work; the scene
>>> about having one's ideas corporatized in Lot 49; Carl's strong anti-bureaucracy strain,--
>>> (Heavy in GR, of course) The John Birch Society nod in Lot 49-as nod to freedom.
>>> And more.
>>> "in a strong sense, the Old Right and the New Left are morally and politically coordinate":[5]
>>> I suggest there is OLD RIGHT in Lot 49 under political lensing.
>>> 
>>> And remember decades later in the Slow Learner introduction how TRP said the New Left
>>> failed to connect with real worker's concerns so failed.
>>> 
>>> Bet they all thought it out together, separately, TRP and Kirkpatrick closest thinking partners
>>> then....
>>> 
>>> Why is this book OP?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> KONSPIRACY KLASSICS CORNER!
>>> THE YANKEE AND COWBOY WAR
>>> The Astonishing Link between the JFK Assassination and the deposing of Nixon
>>> Conspiracies from Dallas to Watergate and Beyond
>>> by Carl Oglesby
>>> 
>>> A few years back, a friend loaned me his copy of Carl Oglesby's The Yankee and Cowboy War, and after reading it I was stunned that I had previously neither read it nor even heard about it. I found it both moving and profoundly impressive. In his masterful dissection of the mid-70's American political milieu, Oglesby gives us nothing less than an absolutely convincing operating model of the forces clashing behind the scenes in post-World War II America, as well as a detailed diagnosis of exactly where and why things went terribly wrong. He presents valuable ideas that have found their way into the works of later authors, most notably Sidney Blumenthal, whose 1986 best-seller The Rise of the Counter-Establishment reads almost like a sequel.
>>> 
>>> I believe The Yankee Cowboy War is essential reading for anyone searching for honest answers about the origins of our current condition. Unfortunately, the book is long out of print. I also understand that most of you reading this are busy people who don't have time to read every worthy book that there is to read. Therefore, I have decided to use this space to publish my "reading notes", taken during my second reading, so that interested parties can get the gist of the book's main theses, the numerous topics it covers, as well as the individuals and events discussed in it.
>>> 
>>> I will be posting these reading notes periodically over the next few days. Obviously, this is a poor substitute for reading the book, itself, but it's a decent primer, and for the researcher in a hurry, it should do in a pinch. Watch for further installments, coming soon!
>>> 
>>> PART ONE: THE CLANDESTINE ELITES
>>> 
>>> · Watergate and the JFK assassination were not isolated incidents, but linked parts of a secret war between two American Elites: the Yankees (Eastern Establishment) and the Cowboys (Sunbelt, New Money, Counter-Establishment).
>>> 
>>> · A hidden drama of coup and counter-coup, intrinsically linked conspiracies, inner oligarchic power sphere, invisible gov’t, above the law, beyond moral rule… a clandestine American state, embryonic police state.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> · Operation Garden Plot, COINTELPRO, Operation Chaos.
>>> 
>>> · CIA contracting ITT to oust Allende in Chile is an example of ruthlessness, just like crimes and cover-up at Dealy Plaza and the Watergate.
>>> 
>>> · What are the origins of these internal government divisions?
>>> 
>>> 1. CIA intel division vs. CIA operational division.
>>> 2. Pentagon vs. FBI
>>> 3. CIA vs. Pentagon
>>> 4. CIA vs. FBI
>>> 5. POTUS and all of the above
>>> 
>>> · Destabilization of the post-Reconstruction unity, which, in turn, was made stronger by FDR in the WWII period (post-war consensus). 60’s, 70’s tumult.
>>> 
>>> · The intensification of clandestine, illicit measures against racial and anti-war dissent coincided with the use of these methods within the state as post-war consensus failed.
>>> 
>>> · Dallas/Watergate: breakdown of the incumbent national coalition… Greater Northeast powers with the greater Southwest powers, the post-Civil War, post-Reconstruction coalition, the New Deal, the Yankees and Cowboys.
>>> 
>>> · Cold War tensions between two separate and distinct and contradictory domains of World Historical Truth: Northeast “détente” and Southwest “militarism”.
>>> 
>>> · In Europe, we could evidently live with communism, whereas in the Third World, we evidently could not. “Spheres of “détente and violence”… an untenable paradox.
>>> 
>>> · When it became clear that the USA couldn’t win militarily in the Third World without risking war in the North Atlantic, consensus dissolved.
>>> 
>>> · Dallas, Nov 22, was an elite power collision, both sensed and real.
>>> 
>>> · Dichotomous Disunity: The Southwest was pro-escalation, on balance, Frontierist, taking the China-lobby position.
>>> 
>>> · Dichotomous Disunity: The Northeast was pro-pullback, on balance, Atlanticist, CFR, NATO-conscious position.
>>> 
>>> · YANKEES:
>>> 1. David Rockefeller
>>> 2. Ivy League
>>> 3. Exclusive clubs of Manhattan, Boston and Georgetown
>>> 4. CFR, Round Table
>>> 5. Eleanor Roosevelt
>>> 6. The Dulles Brothers
>>> 7. Massive Retaliation Doctrine
>>> 8. The Kennedys
>>> 
>>> · COWBOYS:
>>> 1. Howard Hughes
>>> 2. NFL
>>> 3. Exclusive clubs of New Orleans, Dallas and Orange County (both sides)
>>> 4. LBJ
>>> 5. Conally and Hunt
>>> 6. Bay of Pigs team
>>> 7. Nixon
>>> 
>>> · The persistence of Civil War splits in the current situation.
>>> 
>>> · Carroll Quigley had already talked of these themes before Oglesby in his Tragedy and Hope.
>>> 
>>> · Disintegration of Wall Street influence as the Southwest and Far West influence increase, commensurate with a dissolving of the Middle Class and a rise in bourgeoisie.
>>> 
>>> · Northeast Establishment: Semi-aristocratic.
>>> 
>>> · Southwest Counter-Establishment: Petit Bourgeois.
>>> 
>>> · Southwestern money was dependent on government investment: oil, military, aviation, space, natural resources. This is a paradox.
>>> 
>>> · Oglesby argues that the Atlanticist / Frontierist split is primal, and that it runs under everything… 1960.
>>> 
>>> · YANKEE:
>>> 1. Global Scope
>>> 2. At home in the Great World
>>> 3. Regards it as a whole, in context
>>> 4. Good World Order = Relations with allies
>>> 5. Relations with Western Democracies
>>> 6. USA seen as a continuation of Europe’s culture
>>> 7. Europe as key world theater
>>> 8. Fate of USA linked with Europe
>>> 9. White cultural destiny transcending boundaries of nation
>>> 10. The West = One World
>>> 11. Monopolists who broke faith with the Vietnam project because of the high probability of failure
>>> 12. Monopolist East Coast Establishment
>>> 
>>> · COWBOY:
>>> 1. Ties to Europe NOT obvious
>>> 2. Old World vs. New World
>>> 3. Rejects Atlanticism in favor of Frontierism
>>> 4. Expanding wilderness frontier and “Pacific strategy”
>>> 5. Cowboy entrepreneurs fought to keep faith alive because of the necessity of success
>>> 6. Tycoon (Western)
>>> 7. They supported Johnson and Nixon all the way towards a final military solution
>>> 8. “Only the strong survive”
>>> 
>>> · What were the roots of the union in the first place? The frontier which allowed for the continued emergence of  entrepreneurs long after the establishment of the first monopolies.
>>> 
>>> · Marx never studied states that had so much frontier.
>>> 
>>> · The frontier was a reprieve for democracy… and capitalism! All it took was genocide.
>>> 
>>> · Energies of expansion took two centuries… finally taking Alaska and Hawaii. We have no way of knowing how important this expansionism was in keeping the natural American Cowboy/Yankee divide under control.
>>> 
>>> · The success of various Asian revolutionary movements proved a perplexing dilemma to the USA. With Asians successfully defending themselves as self-modernizing, post-colonial entities against American influence, America had run out of frontier.
>>> 
>>> · To comprehend the assassination of JFK (as with Lincoln) is to understand a basic event in modern government. It’s a necessity to understand… an “absolute pre-condition” to self-government, the first step towards the restoration of a legitimate state.
>>> 
>>> · Today’s frontier is the fact that there is no more frontier.
>>> 
>>> PART TWO COMING SOON!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>> 
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