A point-by-point breakdown of the first half of that book I was telling you about.

[Mark Kohut]

The only Kirkpatrick Sale reference I can find herein is the one re
Oglesby's speech at SDS. What bet is he 'going to win"?

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> From what little we have here, it seems to me that Quigley is talking
> about the development of Western Civilization--says that--vs the growth of
> other civilizations (as we know--knew them). I do not think the systems of
> thought of such as Taoism, Buddhism are the proper contrasts. His thrust IS
> to find, as he sez, certain values inherent in the civilization. To not be
> unique values does not refute them. We do not know from such think stuff
> very much of what he thinks about a lot of other civilizations.
>
> When I read his list of positive values and felt the undertow of negative
> happenings, I was reminded, among other things, of Pynchon seemingly
> accepting the founding values of the USA yet writing in lots of ways of the
> ways it 'diverged' from them.
>
> I would think, without reading him, that he must deal with the ways the
> ideals were betrayed yet keep popping up, no? History is conflict from  a
> certain height or he has no values to proclaim.
>
> And, what do you think of his supposed change of mind re the elite's
> benign effect in history? I was tangentially reminded, in my perverse
> obsessed way, with P's build-up of all of the airborne families thru the
> 20s.....then we know what was to come.
>
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
>> Quigley's statement about the ‘the West’ makes a claim that is really
>> about the aspirations of many systems of thought /belief/practical
>> governance  I see it in Taoism, Buddhism,   many tribal values and in
>> individual national  and local regional or community aspirations.  It is
>> also a summary that almost precisely characterizes the mode of the right
>> hemisphere of the brain(Iain McGilchrist).They are good values but hardly
>> unique to ’the West’.  It also appears to dismiss or gloss the competing
>> roles of violence and concentrated power which constantly throughout
>> Western history turns pluralism into dualism, the spread of ’Truth’ into
>> colonial exploitation, and democracy into oligarchy or tyranny.
>>
>> When you combine this self flattering definition with his careful
>> endorsement of the benign influence of the Round Tablers I personally
>> become extremely wary of Quigley. Whether he is influential or influenced,
>> his is the prevailing justification for a global program that is in a
>> delusional state of self-created crisis and decline through violent
>> overreach, economic bullying and environmental insanity(I don’t know if
>> other p-listers followed up on the Kirpatrick Sale reference but it looks
>> like he will win his bet) .
>>
>> Part of my personal attraction to the first Pynchon novel I read(VL) was
>> that it was an hilariously inventive satire of the patent bullshit
>> (Quigleyish bullshit) surrounding us and a tonic to the self congratulation
>> and fascistic aspirations of the 80s. That untutored first reading is still
>> at the core of my interest in his work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 8, 2016, at 5:44 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I've never read about Quigley before but man, the Wiki page paints him
>> > as one of the archetypal American philosophers, and the following
>> > quote certainly is pertinent to our man P:
>> >
>> > "it is clear that the West believes in diversity rather than in
>> > uniformity, in pluralism rather than in monism or dualism, in
>> > inclusion rather than exclusion, in liberty rather than in authority,
>> > in truth rather than in power, in conversion rather than in
>> > annihilation, in the individual rather than in the organization, in
>> > reconciliation rather than in triumph, in heterogeneity rather than in
>> > homogeneity, in relativisms rather than in absolutes, and in
>> > approximations rather than in final answers."
>> >
>> > A loooong sentence that contains many internal inconsistencies, but
>> > which is symptomatic at least of certain tendencies in US rhetoric,
>> > yes? Though the same wiki suggests Quigley makes this claim, too:
>> >
>> > "Democracy tends to emerge only when the best weapons available are
>> > easy for individuals to buy and use."
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 9:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> The overarching conspiracy theorizing historian who wrote Tragedy and
>> Hope.
>> >> Originally 1966. Who claimed to be in touch
>> >> with members of the innermost circle.
>> >>
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> The interest in this is a bit surprising considering the general
>> aversion
>> >>> on the list to conspiracy theories, though admittedly not by all
>> p-listers.
>> >>> Am I wrong in wondering if that aversion is less settled than it
>> seemed.  I
>> >>> knew nothing of this book until this week’s mention here; but just
>> started
>> >>> reading the introduction via Monte’s reference, and find it
>> interesting that
>> >>> Oglesby was unhindered by cultural restraint in talking about
>> conspiracies:
>> >>>
>> >>>   "This book proposes to show that Dallas and Watergate are
>> intrinsically
>> >>> linked conspiracies in a hidden drama of coup and countercoup
>>  which
>> >>> represents the life of an inner oligarchic power sphere, and
>> "invisible
>> >>> government," capable of any act in the pursuit of its objectives,
>> that sets
>> >>> itself above the law and beyond the moral rule: a clandestine American
>> >>> state, perhaps an embryonic police state.”
>> >>>
>> >>> I am just started but does he connect the Bretton Woods conference to
>> the
>> >>> Yankees?
>> >>>> On Mar 7, 2016, at 4:27 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Also online for some years at
>> >>>>
>> https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?9223-The-Yankee-and-Cowboy-War#.Vt3xjDgrKhc
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>> Not self-published. Real publisher. Usually OP now means a rights
>> >>>> problem. Whoever owns the rights is in dispute or is saying No.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I don't quite follow all of this, maybe because I don't know all of
>> the
>> >>>> backstory. I'm deep into the book now, and it is fascinating, as
>> gripping as
>> >>>> any thriller. Not being in the publishing industry, I wanted to ask
>> if the
>> >>>> reason it's out of print is possibly because it needs a lot of work?
>> Lots of
>> >>>> typos and maybe some editing, as well. Has the feel of being
>> >>>> self-published...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 5:45 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Oglesby
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jerky throws us a VERY anarchic curve ball. Looking to refresh myself
>> >>>> and learn more
>> >>>> about Carl Oglesby, I go to wikipedia. Then it gets interesting.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Notice that Kirkpatrick Sale, TRP's old buddy is quoted about Carl's
>> >>>> famous anti-
>> >>>> war speech in late November 1965. Means he was there. We know TRP
>> later
>> >>>> has a letter about not attending another one but one wonders if he
>> was
>> >>>> at this one.
>> >>>> Close to Sales then, publishing recently in mainstream stuff--SEPost
>> and
>> >>>> NYTimes Mag soon after because Sales. And writing and publishing Lot
>> 49.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But even more interesting to me. Look at the way Carl's blend of
>> >>>> political ideas
>> >>>> differs from standard SDS, new Left thinking. (He was to be driven
>> out
>> >>>> of a
>> >>>> leadership position because he would not track standard
>> >>>> Marxist--Leninist
>> >>>> Left notions, this sez.) ...Now, a PS first: who else's social
>> critiques
>> >>>> as we pick
>> >>>> them out in our reading aren't standard Marxist?-- as we've said
>> here.
>> >>>> (This is only associative non-logic I know but keep following the
>> >>>> bouncing ball).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Speculate with me more: as outlined here, Carl's eclectic mix of
>> ideas--
>> >>>> might remind of emblematic scenes from Lot 49??...the Young Americans
>> >>>> for Freedom,
>> >>>> Oedipa's present; libertarianism = cousin of anarchism in that work;
>> the
>> >>>> scene
>> >>>> about having one's ideas corporatized in Lot 49; Carl's strong
>> >>>> anti-bureaucracy strain,--
>> >>>> (Heavy in GR, of course) The John Birch Society nod in Lot 49-as nod
>> to
>> >>>> freedom.
>> >>>> And more.
>> >>>> "in a strong sense, the Old Right and the New Left are morally and
>> >>>> politically coordinate":[5]
>> >>>> I suggest there is OLD RIGHT in Lot 49 under political lensing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And remember decades later in the Slow Learner introduction how TRP
>> said
>> >>>> the New Left
>> >>>> failed to connect with real worker's concerns so failed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bet they all thought it out together, separately, TRP and Kirkpatrick
>> >>>> closest thinking partners
>> >>>> then....
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Why is this book OP?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Mark Thibodeau <
>> jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> KONSPIRACY KLASSICS CORNER!
>> >>>> THE YANKEE AND COWBOY WAR
>> >>>> The Astonishing Link between the JFK Assassination and the deposing
>> of
>> >>>> Nixon
>> >>>> Conspiracies from Dallas to Watergate and Beyond
>> >>>> by Carl Oglesby
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A few years back, a friend loaned me his copy of Carl Oglesby's The
>> >>>> Yankee and Cowboy War, and after reading it I was stunned that I had
>> >>>> previously neither read it nor even heard about it. I found it both
>> moving
>> >>>> and profoundly impressive. In his masterful dissection of the
>> mid-70's
>> >>>> American political milieu, Oglesby gives us nothing less than an
>> absolutely
>> >>>> convincing operating model of the forces clashing behind the scenes
>> in
>> >>>> post-World War II America, as well as a detailed diagnosis of
>> exactly where
>> >>>> and why things went terribly wrong. He presents valuable ideas that
>> have
>> >>>> found their way into the works of later authors, most notably Sidney
>> >>>> Blumenthal, whose 1986 best-seller The Rise of the
>> Counter-Establishment
>> >>>> reads almost like a sequel.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I believe The Yankee Cowboy War is essential reading for anyone
>> >>>> searching for honest answers about the origins of our current
>> condition.
>> >>>> Unfortunately, the book is long out of print. I also understand that
>> most of
>> >>>> you reading this are busy people who don't have time to read every
>> worthy
>> >>>> book that there is to read. Therefore, I have decided to use this
>> space to
>> >>>> publish my "reading notes", taken during my second reading, so that
>> >>>> interested parties can get the gist of the book's main theses, the
>> numerous
>> >>>> topics it covers, as well as the individuals and events discussed in
>> it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I will be posting these reading notes periodically over the next few
>> >>>> days. Obviously, this is a poor substitute for reading the book,
>> itself, but
>> >>>> it's a decent primer, and for the researcher in a hurry, it should
>> do in a
>> >>>> pinch. Watch for further installments, coming soon!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> PART ONE: THE CLANDESTINE ELITES
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Watergate and the JFK assassination were not isolated incidents,
>> but
>> >>>> linked parts of a secret war between two American Elites: the Yankees
>> >>>> (Eastern Establishment) and the Cowboys (Sunbelt, New Money,
>> >>>> Counter-Establishment).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · A hidden drama of coup and counter-coup, intrinsically linked
>> >>>> conspiracies, inner oligarchic power sphere, invisible gov’t, above
>> the law,
>> >>>> beyond moral rule… a clandestine American state, embryonic police
>> state.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Operation Garden Plot, COINTELPRO, Operation Chaos.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · CIA contracting ITT to oust Allende in Chile is an example of
>> >>>> ruthlessness, just like crimes and cover-up at Dealy Plaza and the
>> >>>> Watergate.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · What are the origins of these internal government divisions?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1. CIA intel division vs. CIA operational division.
>> >>>> 2. Pentagon vs. FBI
>> >>>> 3. CIA vs. Pentagon
>> >>>> 4. CIA vs. FBI
>> >>>> 5. POTUS and all of the above
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Destabilization of the post-Reconstruction unity, which, in turn,
>> was
>> >>>> made stronger by FDR in the WWII period (post-war consensus). 60’s,
>> 70’s
>> >>>> tumult.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · The intensification of clandestine, illicit measures against racial
>> >>>> and anti-war dissent coincided with the use of these methods within
>> the
>> >>>> state as post-war consensus failed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Dallas/Watergate: breakdown of the incumbent national coalition…
>> >>>> Greater Northeast powers with the greater Southwest powers, the
>> post-Civil
>> >>>> War, post-Reconstruction coalition, the New Deal, the Yankees and
>> Cowboys.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Cold War tensions between two separate and distinct and
>> contradictory
>> >>>> domains of World Historical Truth: Northeast “détente” and Southwest
>> >>>> “militarism”.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · In Europe, we could evidently live with communism, whereas in the
>> >>>> Third World, we evidently could not. “Spheres of “détente and
>> violence”… an
>> >>>> untenable paradox.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · When it became clear that the USA couldn’t win militarily in the
>> Third
>> >>>> World without risking war in the North Atlantic, consensus dissolved.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Dallas, Nov 22, was an elite power collision, both sensed and real.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Dichotomous Disunity: The Southwest was pro-escalation, on balance,
>> >>>> Frontierist, taking the China-lobby position.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Dichotomous Disunity: The Northeast was pro-pullback, on balance,
>> >>>> Atlanticist, CFR, NATO-conscious position.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · YANKEES:
>> >>>> 1. David Rockefeller
>> >>>> 2. Ivy League
>> >>>> 3. Exclusive clubs of Manhattan, Boston and Georgetown
>> >>>> 4. CFR, Round Table
>> >>>> 5. Eleanor Roosevelt
>> >>>> 6. The Dulles Brothers
>> >>>> 7. Massive Retaliation Doctrine
>> >>>> 8. The Kennedys
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · COWBOYS:
>> >>>> 1. Howard Hughes
>> >>>> 2. NFL
>> >>>> 3. Exclusive clubs of New Orleans, Dallas and Orange County (both
>> sides)
>> >>>> 4. LBJ
>> >>>> 5. Conally and Hunt
>> >>>> 6. Bay of Pigs team
>> >>>> 7. Nixon
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · The persistence of Civil War splits in the current situation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Carroll Quigley had already talked of these themes before Oglesby
>> in
>> >>>> his Tragedy and Hope.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Disintegration of Wall Street influence as the Southwest and Far
>> West
>> >>>> influence increase, commensurate with a dissolving of the Middle
>> Class and a
>> >>>> rise in bourgeoisie.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Northeast Establishment: Semi-aristocratic.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Southwest Counter-Establishment: Petit Bourgeois.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Southwestern money was dependent on government investment: oil,
>> >>>> military, aviation, space, natural resources. This is a paradox.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Oglesby argues that the Atlanticist / Frontierist split is primal,
>> and
>> >>>> that it runs under everything… 1960.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · YANKEE:
>> >>>> 1. Global Scope
>> >>>> 2. At home in the Great World
>> >>>> 3. Regards it as a whole, in context
>> >>>> 4. Good World Order = Relations with allies
>> >>>> 5. Relations with Western Democracies
>> >>>> 6. USA seen as a continuation of Europe’s culture
>> >>>> 7. Europe as key world theater
>> >>>> 8. Fate of USA linked with Europe
>> >>>> 9. White cultural destiny transcending boundaries of nation
>> >>>> 10. The West = One World
>> >>>> 11. Monopolists who broke faith with the Vietnam project because of
>> the
>> >>>> high probability of failure
>> >>>> 12. Monopolist East Coast Establishment
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · COWBOY:
>> >>>> 1. Ties to Europe NOT obvious
>> >>>> 2. Old World vs. New World
>> >>>> 3. Rejects Atlanticism in favor of Frontierism
>> >>>> 4. Expanding wilderness frontier and “Pacific strategy”
>> >>>> 5. Cowboy entrepreneurs fought to keep faith alive because of the
>> >>>> necessity of success
>> >>>> 6. Tycoon (Western)
>> >>>> 7. They supported Johnson and Nixon all the way towards a final
>> military
>> >>>> solution
>> >>>> 8. “Only the strong survive”
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · What were the roots of the union in the first place? The frontier
>> >>>> which allowed for the continued emergence of  entrepreneurs long
>> after the
>> >>>> establishment of the first monopolies.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Marx never studied states that had so much frontier.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · The frontier was a reprieve for democracy… and capitalism! All it
>> took
>> >>>> was genocide.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Energies of expansion took two centuries… finally taking Alaska and
>> >>>> Hawaii. We have no way of knowing how important this expansionism
>> was in
>> >>>> keeping the natural American Cowboy/Yankee divide under control.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · The success of various Asian revolutionary movements proved a
>> >>>> perplexing dilemma to the USA. With Asians successfully defending
>> themselves
>> >>>> as self-modernizing, post-colonial entities against American
>> influence,
>> >>>> America had run out of frontier.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · To comprehend the assassination of JFK (as with Lincoln) is to
>> >>>> understand a basic event in modern government. It’s a necessity to
>> >>>> understand… an “absolute pre-condition” to self-government, the
>> first step
>> >>>> towards the restoration of a legitimate state.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> · Today’s frontier is the fact that there is no more frontier.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> PART TWO COMING SOON!
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -
>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>
>> >>
>> > -
>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>
>
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