NP Brasil

[Richard Romeo]

I'd be foolish to say I'm not since I do not live there but we all make assumptions based on the evidence we come across. I hope to think I'm not cherry picking. I do try to read broadly enough.
I happen to think the world is a chaotic mess and not the result of the evil shenanigans of a small elite



> On Mar 20, 2016, at 11:28 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Do U know? Or R U projecting?
> 
>> On Sunday, March 20, 2016, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> your words:
>> 
>> However, the fact that the protests are largely organized and funded
>> by the elite, including the powerful elite outside the country who are
>> desperate to get their greedy fingers on the resources of the nation
>> and to put an end to one of the most successful efforts to support the
>> poor, the landless, and the rights of the indigenous peoples calls for
>> a closer examination of the protest objectives and its composition.
>> ----
>> successful? hardly. 
>> 
>> ----
>> yr words:
>> That the protesters embrace the prosecution of elites and of corrupt
>> politicians is a common ground, but that they reject Lula/Dilma work
>> to support the poorest members of the society must be analyzed and
>> debated.
>> ----
>> how hard is that to understand? the poor are fed up with them all.  corruption under dilma has been just as bad as any free-market government. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 6:53 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I still don't know what your opinion on Lula and Chavez has to do with what I have posted. I've not even mentioned Chavez. On Lula we disagree. Other than that I have no idea what you are talking about. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sunday, March 20, 2016, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> the socialist experiments are also dismal failures in south america--lula, chavez, that's what
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 5:19 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>  What?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:46 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > from what i've read the corruption re; Petrobas has not stopped under Lula
>>>>> > and Dilma.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > you sure dont give poor people credit for thinking for themselves do you?
>>>>> > being led by their noses by faceless elites. I dont buy it.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> An excellent point.
>>>>> >> However, the fact that the protests are largely organized and funded
>>>>> >> by the elite, including the powerful elite outside the country who are
>>>>> >> desperate to get their greedy fingers on the resources of the nation
>>>>> >> and to put an end to one of the most successful efforts to support the
>>>>> >> poor, the landless, and the rights of the indigenous peoples calls for
>>>>> >> a closer examination of the protest objectives and its composition.
>>>>> >> That photograph of the wealthy white couple and the nanny has become a
>>>>> >> symbol of the need for such scrutiny. The PT, as the article points
>>>>> >> out, has a very loyal electorate, mostly poor and powerless and darker
>>>>> >> in complexion. The poor have hammered by the press, the government
>>>>> >> programs that helped to lift 50 million from abject poverty have been
>>>>> >> demonized by the rich, the affluent and their constituency, by the
>>>>> >> churches, by the business classes and even by the Vice president, who
>>>>> >> is, by strange workings of politics, not of the PT party. That the
>>>>> >> protesters embrace the prosecution of elites and of corrupt
>>>>> >> politicians is a common ground, but that they reject Lula/Dilma work
>>>>> >> to support the poorest members of the society must be analyzed and
>>>>> >> debated.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
>>>>> >> <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> None of this is a defense of PT. Both because of genuine widespread
>>>>> >> >> corruption in that party and national economic woes, Dilma and PT are
>>>>> >> >> intensely unpopular among all classes and groups, even including the
>>>>> >> >> party’s
>>>>> >> >> working-class base. But the street protests — as undeniably large and
>>>>> >> >> energized as they have been — are driven by those who are traditionally
>>>>> >> >> hostile to PT. The number of people participating in these protests —
>>>>> >> >> while
>>>>> >> >> in the millions — is dwarfed by the number (54 million) who voted to
>>>>> >> >> re-elect Dilma less than two years ago. In a democracy, governments are
>>>>> >> >> chosen by voting, not by displays of street opposition — particularly
>>>>> >> >> where,
>>>>> >> >> as in Brazil, the protests are drawn from a relatively narrow societal
>>>>> >> >> segment. <
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > When millions are marching the streets it's not nothing, yet a strong
>>>>> >> > manifestation of democracy. And while it's true that in parliamentarism
>>>>> >> > "governments are chosen by voting", the democratic possibilities of the
>>>>> >> > people, as the subject of the constituent power, can never be reduced to
>>>>> >> > taking part in elections and plebiscites. As Carl Schmitt says: The
>>>>> >> > people
>>>>> >> > are an immediately present and real entity.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > "Nach der demokratischen Lehre von der verfassungsgebenden Gewalt des
>>>>> >> > Volkes
>>>>> >> > steht das Volk als Träger der verfassungsgebenen Gewalt außer und über
>>>>> >> > jeder
>>>>> >> > verfassungsgesetzlichen Normierung. Wenn ihm verfassungsgesetzlich
>>>>> >> > gewisse
>>>>> >> > Zuständigkeiten (Wahlen und Abstimmungen) übertragen werden, ist damit
>>>>> >> > seine
>>>>> >> > politische Handlungsmöglichkeit in einer Demokratie keineswegs erschöpft
>>>>> >> > und
>>>>> >> > erledigt. Neben allen solchen Normierungen bleibt das Volk als
>>>>> >> > unmittelbar
>>>>> >> > anwesende - nicht durch vorher umschriebene Normierungen, Geltungen und
>>>>> >> > Fiktionen vermittelte - wirkliche Größe vorhanden."
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Carl Schmitt: Verfassungslehre [1928], § 18,  p. 242, Berlin 1993:
>>>>> >> > Duncker &
>>>>> >> > Humblot.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On 18.03.2016 21:16, ish mailian wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/
>>>>> >> > -
>>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> -
>>>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> -
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
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