NP Brasil

Mon Mar 21 08:43:54 CDT 2016

well, let's agree to disagree, my friend

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 9:27 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:

> The article I posted-- " Brazil Is Engulfed by Ruling Class Corruption
> — and a Dangerous Subversion of Democracy" -- is an excellent one.
>
> Greenwald & Co. begin by countering the media in and out of Brazil:
> Western media coverage mimics the propaganda coming from Brazil’s
> homogenized, oligarch-owned, anti-democracy media outlets and, as
> such, is misleading, inaccurate, and incomplete, particularly when
> coming from those with little familiarity with the country (there are
> numerous Brazil-based Western reporters doing outstanding work).
>
> The outstanding work rarely makes it to a U.S. or to a Western
> audience.  Most of what one reads in US and Western news about Brazil
> these days is on Zika and how Brazil won't be ready for the Olympic
> Games and how corruption and the failure of the government to invest
> the boom time monies and the collapse of commodities and China have
> put the nation is the greatest stagflation recession since the 1930s
> and that Dilma is the least popular president and that Lula is
> threatening to run for the presidency again and should be stopped.
>
> I posted the Greenwald article because it is an exceptional one.
>
>
> Greewald writes:
>
> Put simply, this is a campaign to subvert Brazil’s democratic outcomes
> by monied factions that have long hated the results of democratic
> elections, deceitfully marching under an anti-corruption banner: quite
> similar to the 1964 coup. Indeed, much of the Brazilian right longs
> for restoration of the military dictatorship, and factions at these
> “anti-corruption” protests have been openly calling for the end of
> democracy.  None of this is a defense of PT.
>
> He's right.
>
> I happen to admire Lula and I give him high marks for a lot of what he
> has done. I'm not naive and will not be surprised if he and Dilma are
> found guilty of corruption.
>
> But the protests expose the major divides in Brazil along race and
> class lines. The yellow duck is a symbol of the anxiety and anger the
> wealthy and new to wealth citizens are expressing there, inflation is
> back, unemployment is rising, the traffickers are emboldened, crack is
> spreading, the kids with guns are in control of the streets....  but
> the taxes they paid to the duck, foolishly they say, was not all
> stolen by the corrupt, it was also used to lift the poor out of
> poverty, and, unfortunately, the duck also represents this sentiment,
> that we were fools to fund programs to help the poor, they should work
> hard and pull themselves up. This is the sadness that is felt by the
> sullying of Lula. Not that a hero or saint or legend is needed or
> wanted, but that a poor person, an uneducated poor person could be
> heard and could run for office and win, could be be a good, even a
> great president, one who would not forget where he comes from and who
> he is, a man who knows that working hard is not enough, that people
> need a government that will fund and support programs for the people
> so that they may live better.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 7:35 AM, Richard Romeo <richard.romeo at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I'd be foolish to say I'm not since I do not live there but we all make
> > assumptions based on the evidence we come across. I hope to think I'm not
> > cherry picking. I do try to read broadly enough.
> > I happen to think the world is a chaotic mess and not the result of the
> evil
> > shenanigans of a small elite
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 20, 2016, at 11:28 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Do U know? Or R U projecting?
> >
> > On Sunday, March 20, 2016, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> your words:
> >>
> >> However, the fact that the protests are largely organized and funded
> >> by the elite, including the powerful elite outside the country who are
> >> desperate to get their greedy fingers on the resources of the nation
> >> and to put an end to one of the most successful efforts to support the
> >> poor, the landless, and the rights of the indigenous peoples calls for
> >> a closer examination of the protest objectives and its composition.
> >> ----
> >> successful? hardly.
> >>
> >> ----
> >> yr words:
> >> That the protesters embrace the prosecution of elites and of corrupt
> >> politicians is a common ground, but that they reject Lula/Dilma work
> >> to support the poorest members of the society must be analyzed and
> >> debated.
> >> ----
> >> how hard is that to understand? the poor are fed up with them all.
> >> corruption under dilma has been just as bad as any free-market
> government.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 6:53 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I still don't know what your opinion on Lula and Chavez has to do with
> >>> what I have posted. I've not even mentioned Chavez. On Lula we
> disagree.
> >>> Other than that I have no idea what you are talking about.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sunday, March 20, 2016, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> the socialist experiments are also dismal failures in south
> >>>> america--lula, chavez, that's what
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 5:19 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  What?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:46 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>> > from what i've read the corruption re; Petrobas has not stopped
> under
> >>>>> > Lula
> >>>>> > and Dilma.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > you sure dont give poor people credit for thinking for themselves
> do
> >>>>> > you?
> >>>>> > being led by their noses by faceless elites. I dont buy it.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com
> >
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> An excellent point.
> >>>>> >> However, the fact that the protests are largely organized and
> funded
> >>>>> >> by the elite, including the powerful elite outside the country who
> >>>>> >> are
> >>>>> >> desperate to get their greedy fingers on the resources of the
> nation
> >>>>> >> and to put an end to one of the most successful efforts to support
> >>>>> >> the
> >>>>> >> poor, the landless, and the rights of the indigenous peoples calls
> >>>>> >> for
> >>>>> >> a closer examination of the protest objectives and its
> composition.
> >>>>> >> That photograph of the wealthy white couple and the nanny has
> become
> >>>>> >> a
> >>>>> >> symbol of the need for such scrutiny. The PT, as the article
> points
> >>>>> >> out, has a very loyal electorate, mostly poor and powerless and
> >>>>> >> darker
> >>>>> >> in complexion. The poor have hammered by the press, the government
> >>>>> >> programs that helped to lift 50 million from abject poverty have
> >>>>> >> been
> >>>>> >> demonized by the rich, the affluent and their constituency, by the
> >>>>> >> churches, by the business classes and even by the Vice president,
> >>>>> >> who
> >>>>> >> is, by strange workings of politics, not of the PT party. That the
> >>>>> >> protesters embrace the prosecution of elites and of corrupt
> >>>>> >> politicians is a common ground, but that they reject Lula/Dilma
> work
> >>>>> >> to support the poorest members of the society must be analyzed and
> >>>>> >> debated.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
> >>>>> >> <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> >> None of this is a defense of PT. Both because of genuine
> >>>>> >> >> widespread
> >>>>> >> >> corruption in that party and national economic woes, Dilma and
> PT
> >>>>> >> >> are
> >>>>> >> >> intensely unpopular among all classes and groups, even
> including
> >>>>> >> >> the
> >>>>> >> >> party’s
> >>>>> >> >> working-class base. But the street protests — as undeniably
> large
> >>>>> >> >> and
> >>>>> >> >> energized as they have been — are driven by those who are
> >>>>> >> >> traditionally
> >>>>> >> >> hostile to PT. The number of people participating in these
> >>>>> >> >> protests —
> >>>>> >> >> while
> >>>>> >> >> in the millions — is dwarfed by the number (54 million) who
> voted
> >>>>> >> >> to
> >>>>> >> >> re-elect Dilma less than two years ago. In a democracy,
> >>>>> >> >> governments are
> >>>>> >> >> chosen by voting, not by displays of street opposition —
> >>>>> >> >> particularly
> >>>>> >> >> where,
> >>>>> >> >> as in Brazil, the protests are drawn from a relatively narrow
> >>>>> >> >> societal
> >>>>> >> >> segment. <
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> > When millions are marching the streets it's not nothing, yet a
> >>>>> >> > strong
> >>>>> >> > manifestation of democracy. And while it's true that in
> >>>>> >> > parliamentarism
> >>>>> >> > "governments are chosen by voting", the democratic possibilities
> >>>>> >> > of the
> >>>>> >> > people, as the subject of the constituent power, can never be
> >>>>> >> > reduced to
> >>>>> >> > taking part in elections and plebiscites. As Carl Schmitt says:
> >>>>> >> > The
> >>>>> >> > people
> >>>>> >> > are an immediately present and real entity.
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> > "Nach der demokratischen Lehre von der verfassungsgebenden
> Gewalt
> >>>>> >> > des
> >>>>> >> > Volkes
> >>>>> >> > steht das Volk als Träger der verfassungsgebenen Gewalt außer
> und
> >>>>> >> > über
> >>>>> >> > jeder
> >>>>> >> > verfassungsgesetzlichen Normierung. Wenn ihm
> verfassungsgesetzlich
> >>>>> >> > gewisse
> >>>>> >> > Zuständigkeiten (Wahlen und Abstimmungen) übertragen werden, ist
> >>>>> >> > damit
> >>>>> >> > seine
> >>>>> >> > politische Handlungsmöglichkeit in einer Demokratie keineswegs
> >>>>> >> > erschöpft
> >>>>> >> > und
> >>>>> >> > erledigt. Neben allen solchen Normierungen bleibt das Volk als
> >>>>> >> > unmittelbar
> >>>>> >> > anwesende - nicht durch vorher umschriebene Normierungen,
> >>>>> >> > Geltungen und
> >>>>> >> > Fiktionen vermittelte - wirkliche Größe vorhanden."
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> > Carl Schmitt: Verfassungslehre [1928], § 18,  p. 242, Berlin
> 1993:
> >>>>> >> > Duncker &
> >>>>> >> > Humblot.
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> > On 18.03.2016 21:16, ish mailian wrote:
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> >
> https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/
> >>>>> >> > -
> >>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> -
> >>>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> -
> >>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20160321/7716541a/attachment.html>