pynchon-l-digest V2 #13091

[Jamie Anderson]

Not to re-fight the Dem primary, but I think as a member of the Obama
coalition and someone who also has minority status in some ways (queer and
a woman), I find it utterly galling that the lesson some Sanders supporters
- many of whom worked tirelessly to tear down Hillary beyond when Bernie
asked them to stop and gave her his support - seem to have taken from this
election is that the Obama coalition that isn't white and working class and
male should shut up and sit down and let the white men do the talking
because our candidate lost in the electoral college. Sanders was not
arguing for any kind of inclusive coalition, throwing African Americans in
the South under the bus during the primary, telling women that the
incredibly attacked institution Planned Parenthood was "Establishment" and
trying to cleave off LGBT voters by being shady about his past history with
respect to Hillary's. I don't want to engage in further debate on this
topic because it has been done to death elsewhere, but that is how it feels
right now listening to Sanders supporters fight this fight again.

It also galls me that I should try to empathize with people who literally
question my basic humanity and want to deny me my rights (Trump voters). I
can't remember the article, but someone wrote, "After the 'Mexicans are
rapists' speech, it was clear there was one choice: stop a racist
demagogue, or don't."

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:00 AM, pynchon-l-digest <
owner-pynchon-l-digest at waste.org> wrote:

>
> pynchon-l-digest    Wednesday, November 16 2016    Volume 02 : Number 13091
>
>
>
> [none]
> [none]
> [none]
> [none]
> [none]
> [none]
> [none]
> [none]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: [none]
>
> Wonderful album, wonderful concert:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWbAP-pbIkE
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: [none]
>
> - --f46d0421a8595d17f205415df56c
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> posted because of some themes and bits
> relevant ...to TRP and the times.....
> If interested:
>
> BEAUTIFUL LOSERS.
> 1) feels at times, in parts, not unlike P, with crazy set pieces,
> riffs...comic exuberance
> up the kazoo.....also and most, though, Joyce...some Finnegans Wake-like
> page-length word riffs it would seem,
> And Lists, lotsa fun lists....a whole chapter list of titles which are like
> surreal prayer questions....and others...
>
> 2) a mix of high diction and low talk...
>           A) there is a 9 stage comic deconstruction of the ads of Charles
> Atlas kicking sand on a weakling. And what happens next. Can remind in
> structure of the Kenosha Kid bit
>
> 3) narrator, an aging scholar of the ancient tribes in Canada is questing,
> invoking, writing to and about Catherina Tekawitha, perhaps a kind of White
> Goddess, or Eternal Feminine or Adams' Virgin sexualized...those ancient
> cultures hold some kind of wisdom too....
>
> 4) Sex, lust, love....you'd have to say are the overarching subjects and
> themes.....narrator tormented about whether buddy and the wife he loved
> ever did it....agonizing over ownership of those "few inches"....one
> supposedly historic scene where a group of tribesmen are taking a woman
> down to the river violently, to have their way......suddenly, Leonard
> writes, they recognize she was an Other...and don't....loved it, so
> surprising....
>
> 5) a buddy novel, the narrator more reliable than his unreliable buddy, who
> rags him and makes shit up, a best friend from childhood.
> Sex, love, some wild back-and-forth on whether they are 'fairies' because,
>  gripped with lust
> they might wank each other off....buddy says Face it....narrator says NO!
>
> 6) permeated with the lost, the losers, akin to preterites....sub-basement
> (MobyDick) and invisible man allusions....."I just want to cast a
> shadow"....."where are the hiding places hiding?"
>
> 7) "Dribble, dribble went the foam and spit between toothless jaws"
>
> 8) David Morris, this goes out most to you: .....Cohen too surely read LIFE
> AGAINST DEATH...major comic scene on constipation which becomes a
> motif........right before
>  a hilarious scene where buddy tells the narrator he and wife---while
> narrator was too long in the bathroom (nice touch)!.....licked each others
> fingers and put them into the others' ears......more intense pleasure
> than......with "Down with the imperialism of genital orgasms" flying around
> in the mix...Polymorphous perversity indeed....
>
> 9) "Where is Grace today? "  Concept keeps appearing with nods, words to
> some kind of sought karmic balance...in a terrif doc from 1964 I just
> watched Leonard is on a panel being asked about his poetry, particularly
> its statements, its messages, which one can see is not what he thinks his
> poetry is 'about" m.......he finally answers 'when I wake up every day I
> ask if i'm in a state of grace then I explore".....
>
> 10) And tell me this doesn't bring to mind The English Candy Drill: "Why
> isn't candy being fed to History?"...p.57
>
> I think this would have been a nice book to fail at another Group Read
> with.....
>
> --f46d0421a8595d17f205415df56c
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div dir=3D"ltr">posted because of some themes and bits<div>relevant ...to
> =
> TRP and the times.....</div><div>If interested:=C2=A0</div><div><
> br></div><=
> div>BEAUTIFUL LOSERS.</div><div>1) feels at times, in parts, not unlike P,
> =
> with crazy set pieces, riffs...comic exuberance</div><div>up the
> kazoo.....=
> also and most, though, Joyce...some Finnegans Wake-like page-length word
> ri=
> ffs it would seem,=C2=A0</div><div>And Lists, lotsa fun lists....a whole
> ch=
> apter list of titles which are like surreal prayer questions....and
> others.=
> ..</div><div><br></div><div>2) a mix of high diction and low
> talk...</div><=
> div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A) there is a 9 stage comic
> deconstr=
> uction of the ads of Charles Atlas kicking sand on a weakling. And what
> hap=
> pens next. Can remind in structure of the Kenosha Kid
> bit</div><div><br></d=
> iv><div>3) narrator, an aging scholar of the ancient tribes in Canada is
> qu=
> esting, invoking, writing to and about Catherina Tekawitha, perhaps a kind
> =
> of White Goddess, or Eternal Feminine or Adams' Virgin
> sexualized...tho=
> se ancient cultures hold some kind of wisdom too....</div><div><br></div><
> d=
> iv>4) Sex, lust, love....you'd have to say are the overarching
> subjects=
>  and themes.....narrator tormented about whether buddy and the wife he
> love=
> d ever did it....agonizing over ownership of those "few
> inches"..=
> ..one supposedly historic scene where a group of tribesmen are taking a
> wom=
> an down to the river violently, to have their way......suddenly, Leonard
> wr=
> ites, they recognize she was an Other...and don't....loved it, so
> surpr=
> ising....</div><div><br></div><div>5) a buddy novel, the narrator more
> reli=
> able than his unreliable buddy, who rags him and makes shit up, a best
> frie=
> nd from childhood.</div><div>Sex, love, some wild back-and-forth on
> whether=
>  they are 'fairies' because, =C2=A0gripped with
> lust</div><div>they=
>  might wank each other off....buddy says Face it....narrator says
> NO!</div>=
> <div><br></div><div>6) permeated with the lost, the losers, akin to
> preteri=
> tes....sub-basement (MobyDick) and invisible man allusions....."I
> just=
>  want to cast a shadow"....."where are the hiding places
> hiding?&=
> quot;=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>7) "Dribble, dribble went the
> foa=
> m and spit between toothless jaws"</div><div><br></div><div>8) David
> M=
> orris, this goes out most to you: .....Cohen too surely read LIFE AGAINST
> D=
> EATH...major comic scene on constipation which becomes a
> motif........right=
>  before</div><div>=C2=A0a hilarious scene where buddy tells the narrator
> he=
>  and wife---while narrator was too long in the bathroom (nice
> touch)!.....l=
> icked each others fingers and put them into the others' ears......more
> =
> intense pleasure than......with "Down with the imperialism of genital
> =
> orgasms" flying around in the mix...Polymorphous perversity
> indeed....=
> </div><div><br></div><div>9) "Where is Grace today? "
> =C2=A0Conce=
> pt keeps appearing with nods, words to some kind of sought karmic
> balance..=
> .in a terrif doc from 1964 I just watched Leonard is on a panel being
> asked=
>  about his poetry, particularly its statements, its messages, which one
> can=
>  see is not what he thinks his poetry is 'about" m.......he
> finall=
> y answers 'when I wake up every day I ask if i'm in a state of
> grac=
> e then I explore".....</div><div><br></div><div>10) And tell me this
> d=
> oesn't bring to mind The English Candy Drill: "Why isn't
> candy=
>  being fed to History?"...p.57</div><div><br></div><div>I think this
> w=
> ould have been a nice book to fail at another Group Read
> with.....</div><di=
> v><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0 =
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></
> div><div><br></div></div>
>
> --f46d0421a8595d17f205415df56c--
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: [none]
>
> - --94eb2c190cf0e03c3e05416213ac
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> A FB sage (& P-lister) recently reasoned that Hillary's loss proved that
> she was the "wrong candidate" for this election, presumably as a lesson to
> be learned for the future.  I challenged that we had the "wrong
> electorate," willing to vote for a clearly visible moral monster over a
> qualified and rational human being.  His counter was that her loss was
> proof of his thesis: She lost, therefore she was the wrong candidate.
>
> Beneath his logic was a belief that Trump voters first need to be
> understood, and not destained.  Understanding is always useful, but it
> doesn't follow that such understanding will become mutual. Nor should it
> imply that opposition to those assholes should become less vehement.
> Understanding a rapist doesn't make him sympathetic.
>
> Hillary's loss doesn't make her the wrong candidate. It only means she
> lost.  By absurd logic she only became the wrong candidate at the moment of
> her loss.  Before that we all knew she was winning.  And this absurd logic
> is accepted as the premise for too much post-loss analysis.  Trumps voters
> are a mix of deplorables, nihilists, racists, opportunists, religionists,
> and a list of other "wrong" electorate qualities.  Our country is less
> noble than many of us thought.
>
> Lesson learned?
> David Morris
>
> --94eb2c190cf0e03c3e05416213ac
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> A FB sage (& P-lister)=C2=A0recently=C2=A0reasoned that Hillary's
> l=
> oss proved that she was the "wrong candidate" for this election,=
> =C2=A0presumably as a lesson to be learned for the future.=C2=A0 I
> challeng=
> ed that we had the "wrong electorate," willing to vote for a
> clea=
> rly visible moral monster over a qualified and rational human being.=C2=A0
> =
> His counter was that her loss was proof of his thesis: She lost, therefore
> =
> she was the wrong candidate.<div><br></div><div>Beneath his logic was a
> bel=
> ief that Trump voters first need to be understood, and not
> destained.=C2=A0=
>  Understanding is always useful, but it doesn't follow that such
> unders=
> tanding will become mutual. Nor should it imply that opposition to those
> as=
> sholes=C2=A0should become less vehement. Understanding a rapist
> doesn't=
>  make him sympathetic.</div><div><br></div>Hillary's loss doesn't
> m=
> ake her the wrong candidate. It only means she lost.=C2=A0 By
> absurd=C2=A0l=
> ogic she only became the wrong=C2=A0candidate at the moment of her
> loss.=C2=
> =A0 Before that we all knew she was winning.=C2=A0 And this
> absurd=C2=A0log=
> ic is accepted as the premise for too much post-loss analysis.=C2=A0
> Trumps=
>  voters are a mix of deplorables, nihilists, racists, opportunists,
> religio=
> nists, and a list of other "wrong" electorate qualities.=C2=A0
> Ou=
> r country is less noble than many of us thought.<div><br></div><div>Lesson
> =
> learned?</div><div>David Morris<br><div><div><br></div>
> <div><br></div></div=
> ></div>
>
> --94eb2c190cf0e03c3e05416213ac--
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: [none]
>
> Thing is? She fucking won.
>
> Popular vote, electoral vote, she won them all.
>
> The PROBLEM is that the paperless voting machines didn't reflect that fact.
>
> Evidence of a stolen election
> http://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/
>
> Yet more evidence of a stolen election
> http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/can-we-count-
> election-results-exit-poll-discrepancies-and-voter-suppression-are
>
> And yet even more evidence of a stolen election
> https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/
>
> That last one is particularly good if you dig into the materials about
> 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2010 and 2014 (all stolen) as well as 2008 and
> 2012 (attempted steals).
>
> Exit polling raw data is the gold standard for determining if an
> election is rigged. By that standard, every federal election, both
> presidential and mid-term, has been rigged.
>
> J.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:46 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> > A FB sage (& P-lister) recently reasoned that Hillary's loss proved that
> she
> > was the "wrong candidate" for this election, presumably as a lesson to be
> > learned for the future.  I challenged that we had the "wrong electorate,"
> > willing to vote for a clearly visible moral monster over a qualified and
> > rational human being.  His counter was that her loss was proof of his
> > thesis: She lost, therefore she was the wrong candidate.
> >
> > Beneath his logic was a belief that Trump voters first need to be
> > understood, and not destained.  Understanding is always useful, but it
> > doesn't follow that such understanding will become mutual. Nor should it
> > imply that opposition to those assholes should become less vehement.
> > Understanding a rapist doesn't make him sympathetic.
> >
> > Hillary's loss doesn't make her the wrong candidate. It only means she
> lost.
> > By absurd logic she only became the wrong candidate at the moment of her
> > loss.  Before that we all knew she was winning.  And this absurd logic is
> > accepted as the premise for too much post-loss analysis.  Trumps voters
> are
> > a mix of deplorables, nihilists, racists, opportunists, religionists,
> and a
> > list of other "wrong" electorate qualities.  Our country is less noble
> than
> > many of us thought.
> >
> > Lesson learned?
> > David Morris
> >
> >
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: [none]
>
> Every one since 2000 I mean - which saw the beginning of wide-spread
> use of paper-free top secret proprietary "private" software-using,
> Republican owned and operated touch-screen electronic voting machines.
>
> J.
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:54 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Thing is? She fucking won.
> >
> > Popular vote, electoral vote, she won them all.
> >
> > The PROBLEM is that the paperless voting machines didn't reflect that
> fact.
> >
> > Evidence of a stolen election
> > http://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/
> >
> > Yet more evidence of a stolen election
> > http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/can-we-count-
> election-results-exit-poll-discrepancies-and-voter-suppression-are
> >
> > And yet even more evidence of a stolen election
> > https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/
> >
> > That last one is particularly good if you dig into the materials about
> > 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2010 and 2014 (all stolen) as well as 2008 and
> > 2012 (attempted steals).
> >
> > Exit polling raw data is the gold standard for determining if an
> > election is rigged. By that standard, every federal election, both
> > presidential and mid-term, has been rigged.
> >
> > J.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:46 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> A FB sage (& P-lister) recently reasoned that Hillary's loss proved
> that she
> >> was the "wrong candidate" for this election, presumably as a lesson to
> be
> >> learned for the future.  I challenged that we had the "wrong
> electorate,"
> >> willing to vote for a clearly visible moral monster over a qualified and
> >> rational human being.  His counter was that her loss was proof of his
> >> thesis: She lost, therefore she was the wrong candidate.
> >>
> >> Beneath his logic was a belief that Trump voters first need to be
> >> understood, and not destained.  Understanding is always useful, but it
> >> doesn't follow that such understanding will become mutual. Nor should it
> >> imply that opposition to those assholes should become less vehement.
> >> Understanding a rapist doesn't make him sympathetic.
> >>
> >> Hillary's loss doesn't make her the wrong candidate. It only means she
> lost.
> >> By absurd logic she only became the wrong candidate at the moment of her
> >> loss.  Before that we all knew she was winning.  And this absurd logic
> is
> >> accepted as the premise for too much post-loss analysis.  Trumps voters
> are
> >> a mix of deplorables, nihilists, racists, opportunists, religionists,
> and a
> >> list of other "wrong" electorate qualities.  Our country is less noble
> than
> >> many of us thought.
> >>
> >> Lesson learned?
> >> David Morris
> >>
> >>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: [none]
>
> - --001a11442af4cd5e15054163746a
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Aren't you also a Truther? Conspiracy becomes your life's breath, right?
> Nope. Not for me.
>
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2016, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thing is? She fucking won.
> >
> > Popular vote, electoral vote, she won them all.
> >
> > The PROBLEM is that the paperless voting machines didn't reflect that
> fact.
> >
> > Evidence of a stolen election
> > http://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/
> >
> > Yet more evidence of a stolen election
> > http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/can-we-count-
> > election-results-exit-poll-discrepancies-and-voter-suppression-are
> >
> > And yet even more evidence of a stolen election
> > https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/
> >
> > That last one is particularly good if you dig into the materials about
> > 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2010 and 2014 (all stolen) as well as 2008 and
> > 2012 (attempted steals).
> >
> > Exit polling raw data is the gold standard for determining if an
> > election is rigged. By that standard, every federal election, both
> > presidential and mid-term, has been rigged.
> >
> > J.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:46 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > A FB sage (& P-lister) recently reasoned that Hillary's loss proved
> that
> > she
> > > was the "wrong candidate" for this election, presumably as a lesson to
> be
> > > learned for the future.  I challenged that we had the "wrong
> electorate,"
> > > willing to vote for a clearly visible moral monster over a qualified
> and
> > > rational human being.  His counter was that her loss was proof of his
> > > thesis: She lost, therefore she was the wrong candidate.
> > >
> > > Beneath his logic was a belief that Trump voters first need to be
> > > understood, and not destained.  Understanding is always useful, but it
> > > doesn't follow that such understanding will become mutual. Nor should
> it
> > > imply that opposition to those assholes should become less vehement.
> > > Understanding a rapist doesn't make him sympathetic.
> > >
> > > Hillary's loss doesn't make her the wrong candidate. It only means she
> > lost.
> > > By absurd logic she only became the wrong candidate at the moment of
> her
> > > loss.  Before that we all knew she was winning.  And this absurd logic
> is
> > > accepted as the premise for too much post-loss analysis.  Trumps voters
> > are
> > > a mix of deplorables, nihilists, racists, opportunists, religionists,
> > and a
> > > list of other "wrong" electorate qualities.  Our country is less noble
> > than
> > > many of us thought.
> > >
> > > Lesson learned?
> > > David Morris
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> --001a11442af4cd5e15054163746a
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Aren't you also a Truther? Conspiracy becomes your life's breath,
> r=
> ight?=C2=A0 Nope. Not for me.<div><br>On Tuesday, November 15, 2016, Mark
> T=
> hibodeau <<a href=3D"mailto:jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com">jerkyleboeuf at gmail.
> c=
> om</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0
> =
> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thing is? She fucking
> w=
> on.<br>
> <br>
> Popular vote, electoral vote, she won them all.<br>
> <br>
> The PROBLEM is that the paperless voting machines didn't reflect that
> f=
> act.<br>
> <br>
> Evidence of a stolen election<br>
> <a href=3D"http://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/"
> target=3D"_bla=
> nk">http://www.gregpalast.com/<wbr>election-stolen-heres/</a><br>
> <br>
> Yet more evidence of a stolen election<br>
> <a href=3D"http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/can-we-
> count-election-resu=
> lts-exit-poll-discrepancies-and-voter-suppression-are"
> target=3D"_blank">ht=
> tp://www.alternet.org/<wbr>election-2016/can-we-count-<
> wbr>election-results=
> -exit-poll-<wbr>discrepancies-and-voter-<wbr>suppression-are</a><br>
> <br>
> And yet even more evidence of a stolen election<br>
> <a href=3D"https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/"
> target=3D"_blank">https:/=
> /richardcharnin.<wbr>wordpress.com/</a><br>
> <br>
> That last one is particularly good if you dig into the materials about<br>
> 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2010 and 2014 (all stolen) as well as 2008 and<br>
> 2012 (attempted steals).<br>
> <br>
> Exit polling raw data is the gold standard for determining if an<br>
> election is rigged. By that standard, every federal election, both<br>
> presidential and mid-term, has been rigged.<br>
> <br>
> J.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:46 PM, David Morris <<a href=3D"javascript:;"
> =
> onclick=3D"_e(event, 'cvml', 'fqmorris at gmail.com')"
> >fqmorri=
> s at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > A FB sage (& P-lister) recently reasoned that Hillary's loss
> p=
> roved that she<br>
> > was the "wrong candidate" for this election, presumably as
> a=
>  lesson to be<br>
> > learned for the future.=C2=A0 I challenged that we had the
> "wrong=
>  electorate,"<br>
> > willing to vote for a clearly visible moral monster over a qualified
> a=
> nd<br>
> > rational human being.=C2=A0 His counter was that her loss was proof
> of=
>  his<br>
> > thesis: She lost, therefore she was the wrong candidate.<br>
> ><br>
> > Beneath his logic was a belief that Trump voters first need to be<br>
> > understood, and not destained.=C2=A0 Understanding is always useful,
> b=
> ut it<br>
> > doesn't follow that such understanding will become mutual. Nor
> sho=
> uld it<br>
> > imply that opposition to those assholes should become less
> vehement.<b=
> r>
> > Understanding a rapist doesn't make him sympathetic.<br>
> ><br>
> > Hillary's loss doesn't make her the wrong candidate. It only
> m=
> eans she lost.<br>
> > By absurd logic she only became the wrong candidate at the moment of
> h=
> er<br>
> > loss.=C2=A0 Before that we all knew she was winning.=C2=A0 And this
> ab=
> surd logic is<br>
> > accepted as the premise for too much post-loss analysis.=C2=A0 Trumps
> =
> voters are<br>
> > a mix of deplorables, nihilists, racists, opportunists, religionists,
> =
> and a<br>
> > list of other "wrong" electorate qualities.=C2=A0 Our
> countr=
> y is less noble than<br>
> > many of us thought.<br>
> ><br>
> > Lesson learned?<br>
> > David Morris<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> </blockquote></div>
>
> --001a11442af4cd5e15054163746a--
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: [none]
>
> I'd dismiss the idea of such widespread electoral fraud in a country
> like the US if I hadn't heard this freaking terrifying account of
> electronic voting a few years ago via This American Life. Definitely
> worth a listen (or just skim the transcript):
> https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/250/transcript
> - it's one of those rare bits of journalism that powerfully altered my
> thinking on a subject.
>
> Short points:
> 1) electronic voting machines are so easy to hack that the reporter
> does it himself in the first few minutes of the show
> 2) unlike analog machines, there's no physical evidence of how you
> voted, so if anything is changed there's no log (or chad) of it
> 3) even if it's not human malice, mistakes also can't be traced for
> the same reason
> 4) the workers staffing the polling booths aren't computer engineers,
> so the people who operate these machines no longer know how they work
> 5) and the machines themselves are under the same trade secrecy laws
> as Coca Cola's secret recipe - if you did know how they work and you
> don't work for the company, you're in trouble...
>
> And so on. Fascinating stuff.
>
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Every one since 2000 I mean - which saw the beginning of wide-spread
> > use of paper-free top secret proprietary "private" software-using,
> > Republican owned and operated touch-screen electronic voting machines.
> >
> > J.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:54 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Thing is? She fucking won.
> >>
> >> Popular vote, electoral vote, she won them all.
> >>
> >> The PROBLEM is that the paperless voting machines didn't reflect that
> fact.
> >>
> >> Evidence of a stolen election
> >> http://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/
> >>
> >> Yet more evidence of a stolen election
> >> http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/can-we-count-
> election-results-exit-poll-discrepancies-and-voter-suppression-are
> >>
> >> And yet even more evidence of a stolen election
> >> https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/
> >>
> >> That last one is particularly good if you dig into the materials about
> >> 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2010 and 2014 (all stolen) as well as 2008 and
> >> 2012 (attempted steals).
> >>
> >> Exit polling raw data is the gold standard for determining if an
> >> election is rigged. By that standard, every federal election, both
> >> presidential and mid-term, has been rigged.
> >>
> >> J.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:46 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> A FB sage (& P-lister) recently reasoned that Hillary's loss proved
> that she
> >>> was the "wrong candidate" for this election, presumably as a lesson to
> be
> >>> learned for the future.  I challenged that we had the "wrong
> electorate,"
> >>> willing to vote for a clearly visible moral monster over a qualified
> and
> >>> rational human being.  His counter was that her loss was proof of his
> >>> thesis: She lost, therefore she was the wrong candidate.
> >>>
> >>> Beneath his logic was a belief that Trump voters first need to be
> >>> understood, and not destained.  Understanding is always useful, but it
> >>> doesn't follow that such understanding will become mutual. Nor should
> it
> >>> imply that opposition to those assholes should become less vehement.
> >>> Understanding a rapist doesn't make him sympathetic.
> >>>
> >>> Hillary's loss doesn't make her the wrong candidate. It only means she
> lost.
> >>> By absurd logic she only became the wrong candidate at the moment of
> her
> >>> loss.  Before that we all knew she was winning.  And this absurd logic
> is
> >>> accepted as the premise for too much post-loss analysis.  Trumps
> voters are
> >>> a mix of deplorables, nihilists, racists, opportunists, religionists,
> and a
> >>> list of other "wrong" electorate qualities.  Our country is less noble
> than
> >>> many of us thought.
> >>>
> >>> Lesson learned?
> >>> David Morris
> >>>
> >>>
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:
> From:
> Subject: [none]
>
> I'll stick with my end of empire argument, for Brexit and Trump.
>
> Most of us in the UK and US, no matter what our (family's) economic
> history, are culturally grounded in our membership of an imperial power.
> In the UK that may be long past but the presumption of our right to a
> secure life lingers ("long after it is cut out") and the reaction to the
> loss, among rightwingers and the politically uninterested is a rage
> against they who are perceived to have deprived them of such. It was
> easy for our rightwing opportunists to focus that rage on the European
> Union.
>
> In the US the dimming of your imperial might has been happening in these
> last three decades and is much more raw, but the same thing is
> happening. Your political establishment is being blamed by a large
> minority of the population.
>
> Another large minority still supports the establishment of Clinton and
> the Democrat hierarchy because they think any loss in fortune they feel
> is just temporary and the imperial capitalist project is still good,
> leaving only the longer sighted Sanders supporters to recognise the
> historical change happening to the US. Their egalitarian solution won't
> rescue the US's global power, but it will spread the decline more evenly.
>
> This is not to deny that the racists, xenophobes, misogynists, and white
> supremacists have not been empowered by Trump's victory, but those
> tendencies were an accelerant not a cause of the conflagration.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #13091
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