Grace again. Misc.

Tue Aug 1 07:49:44 CDT 2017

I think that Pynchon riffs on words and concepts.  He isn't precise because
he is always playing.

On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 1:09 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <lorentzen at hotmail.de
> wrote:

>
> Yes, but the question is whether Pynchon's use of the word is, perhaps,
> closer to Luther's teaching on Grace than it is to the other ones that were
> mentioned in this thread.
>
> Is there a theologian on board?
>
>
>
> Am 31.07.2017 um 12:56 schrieb David Morris:
>
> Luther's revolution was born of his concept of Grace.  Say "grace," hear
> Luther.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 2:32 AM Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>
>>
>> Could it be that Pynchon's understanding of Grace is Lutheran?
>>
>> > ... Martin Luther’s theology can be fundamentally construed as the
>> development of his thought regarding the nature of grace, the nature of
>> God’s favor and blessing bestowed upon undeserving human beings. The many
>> dimensions of Luther’s biblical teaching and theological reflection have,
>> in the background a desire to understand God’s grace most fully revealed in
>> Jesus Christ. As such, Luther’s concepts of the righteousness of God,
>> justification by faith, the bound will, the distinction of law and gospel,
>> the new obedience, the “happy exchange,” and many related concepts are, at
>> heart, attempts to describe what it is to have a God of grace.
>> Most interpreters have rightly understood that in Luther’s view, to have
>> a gracious God means to have a God who does not require human beings to
>> fulfill a set of prerequisites in order to receive God’s gift in Christ or
>> to reciprocate God’s giving in order to continue receiving Christ and his
>> benefits. For Luther, to have a God of grace means to believe and trust
>> that through Jesus Christ, God has already met all prerequisites and
>> fulfilled all reciprocations. On this point, Luther found himself breaking
>> new ground (or recovering lost ground) in the understanding of divine
>> grace. Luther “broke” with those theological forebears who taught that
>> divine grace was, in one way or another, partly dependent on human willing
>> and doing. For Luther, God graciously wills and works “all in all.”
>> Nevertheless, when Luther’s many descriptions of what it is to “have a
>> gracious God” are analyzed, a more nuanced understanding of the
>> relationship between the One giving the gift and the ones receiving it
>> begins to reveal itself. For Luther, faith—that gracious means through
>> which God graciously bestows the righteousness of Christ—creates a dynamic
>> rather than static experience of possessing and being possessed of a God of
>> grace ... <
>>
>> http://religion.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/
>> 9780199340378.001.0001/acrefore-9780199340378-e-335
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 30.07.2017 um 13:58 schrieb Mark Kohut:
>>
>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>
>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then grace
>> as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in the
>> text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its opposite.
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although I
>>>> know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards because of
>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>
>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of Grace
>>>> within the religious tradition, for him
>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the cosmos---which
>>>> might all be predetermined, of course, per your observation---
>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day ends....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we didn't
>>>>> need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So, the
>>>>> opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite might be
>>>>>> damnation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of the
>>>>>> word?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit if
>>>>>>> you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you have
>>>>>>> clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>>>>>>>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very
>>>>>>>> recent essay.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
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