Grace again. Misc.

Tue Aug 1 14:34:55 CDT 2017

But you know how to whistle, don't you?

2017-08-01 21:28 GMT+02:00 Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>:

> I've never heard tell of any theologians on the p-list but it seems to me
> Luther's notion of grace is so otherworldly it could be of little use to
> novelists. It's just too totally other, as Luther's God is totally other.
> It doesn't help poor sinful humanity to be good. It doesn't make dodos talk
> or Byron eternal.  It doesn't do anything material or physical.  It IS
> free.  You don't have to do anything, or say anything. You don't even have
> to whistle.  It CAN save you from damnation, but that's off in eternity
> somewhere.
>
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 2:09 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, but the question is whether Pynchon's use of the word is, perhaps,
>> closer to Luther's teaching on Grace than it is to the other ones that were
>> mentioned in this thread.
>>
>> Is there a theologian on board?
>>
>>
>> Am 31.07.2017 um 12:56 schrieb David Morris:
>>
>> Luther's revolution was born of his concept of Grace.  Say "grace," hear
>> Luther.
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 2:32 AM Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Could it be that Pynchon's understanding of Grace is Lutheran?
>>>
>>> > ... Martin Luther’s theology can be fundamentally construed as the
>>> development of his thought regarding the nature of grace, the nature of
>>> God’s favor and blessing bestowed upon undeserving human beings. The many
>>> dimensions of Luther’s biblical teaching and theological reflection have,
>>> in the background a desire to understand God’s grace most fully revealed in
>>> Jesus Christ. As such, Luther’s concepts of the righteousness of God,
>>> justification by faith, the bound will, the distinction of law and gospel,
>>> the new obedience, the “happy exchange,” and many related concepts are, at
>>> heart, attempts to describe what it is to have a God of grace.
>>> Most interpreters have rightly understood that in Luther’s view, to have
>>> a gracious God means to have a God who does not require human beings to
>>> fulfill a set of prerequisites in order to receive God’s gift in Christ or
>>> to reciprocate God’s giving in order to continue receiving Christ and his
>>> benefits. For Luther, to have a God of grace means to believe and trust
>>> that through Jesus Christ, God has already met all prerequisites and
>>> fulfilled all reciprocations. On this point, Luther found himself breaking
>>> new ground (or recovering lost ground) in the understanding of divine
>>> grace. Luther “broke” with those theological forebears who taught that
>>> divine grace was, in one way or another, partly dependent on human willing
>>> and doing. For Luther, God graciously wills and works “all in all.”
>>> Nevertheless, when Luther’s many descriptions of what it is to “have a
>>> gracious God” are analyzed, a more nuanced understanding of the
>>> relationship between the One giving the gift and the ones receiving it
>>> begins to reveal itself. For Luther, faith—that gracious means through
>>> which God graciously bestows the righteousness of Christ—creates a dynamic
>>> rather than static experience of possessing and being possessed of a God of
>>> grace ... <
>>>
>>> http://religion.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/978019934
>>> 0378.001.0001/acrefore-9780199340378-e-335
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 30.07.2017 um 13:58 schrieb Mark Kohut:
>>>
>>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>>
>>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then grace
>>> as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in the
>>> text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its opposite.
>>>>
>>>> David Morris
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although I
>>>>> know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards because
>>>>> of
>>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>>
>>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of Grace
>>>>> within the religious tradition, for him
>>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the cosmos---which
>>>>> might all be predetermined, of course, per your observation---
>>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day ends....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we
>>>>>> didn't need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So,
>>>>>> the opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite might
>>>>>>> be damnation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of the
>>>>>>> word?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <
>>>>>>> jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit if
>>>>>>>> you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you have
>>>>>>>> clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>>>>>>>>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very
>>>>>>>>> recent essay.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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