Grace again. Misc.

Tue Aug 1 15:28:25 CDT 2017

grace under pressure?

2017-08-01 22:10 GMT+02:00 David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>:

> Luther's Grace evolved into Calvin's predestination for the very reason
> you cite:  If it is completely unearned, then why do some receive it while
> others don't?
>
> Paradox doesn't make sense.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've never heard tell of any theologians on the p-list but it seems to me
>> Luther's notion of grace is so otherworldly it could be of little use to
>> novelists. It's just too totally other, as Luther's God is totally other.
>> It doesn't help poor sinful humanity to be good. It doesn't make dodos talk
>> or Byron eternal.  It doesn't do anything material or physical.  It IS
>> free.  You don't have to do anything, or say anything. You don't even have
>> to whistle.  It CAN save you from damnation, but that's off in eternity
>> somewhere.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 2:09 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but the question is whether Pynchon's use of the word is, perhaps,
>>> closer to Luther's teaching on Grace than it is to the other ones that were
>>> mentioned in this thread.
>>>
>>> Is there a theologian on board?
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 31.07.2017 um 12:56 schrieb David Morris:
>>>
>>> Luther's revolution was born of his concept of Grace.  Say "grace," hear
>>> Luther.
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 2:32 AM Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could it be that Pynchon's understanding of Grace is Lutheran?
>>>>
>>>> > ... Martin Luther’s theology can be fundamentally construed as the
>>>> development of his thought regarding the nature of grace, the nature of
>>>> God’s favor and blessing bestowed upon undeserving human beings. The many
>>>> dimensions of Luther’s biblical teaching and theological reflection have,
>>>> in the background a desire to understand God’s grace most fully revealed in
>>>> Jesus Christ. As such, Luther’s concepts of the righteousness of God,
>>>> justification by faith, the bound will, the distinction of law and gospel,
>>>> the new obedience, the “happy exchange,” and many related concepts are, at
>>>> heart, attempts to describe what it is to have a God of grace.
>>>> Most interpreters have rightly understood that in Luther’s view, to
>>>> have a gracious God means to have a God who does not require human beings
>>>> to fulfill a set of prerequisites in order to receive God’s gift in Christ
>>>> or to reciprocate God’s giving in order to continue receiving Christ and
>>>> his benefits. For Luther, to have a God of grace means to believe and trust
>>>> that through Jesus Christ, God has already met all prerequisites and
>>>> fulfilled all reciprocations. On this point, Luther found himself breaking
>>>> new ground (or recovering lost ground) in the understanding of divine
>>>> grace. Luther “broke” with those theological forebears who taught that
>>>> divine grace was, in one way or another, partly dependent on human willing
>>>> and doing. For Luther, God graciously wills and works “all in all.”
>>>> Nevertheless, when Luther’s many descriptions of what it is to “have a
>>>> gracious God” are analyzed, a more nuanced understanding of the
>>>> relationship between the One giving the gift and the ones receiving it
>>>> begins to reveal itself. For Luther, faith—that gracious means through
>>>> which God graciously bestows the righteousness of Christ—creates a dynamic
>>>> rather than static experience of possessing and being possessed of a God of
>>>> grace ... <
>>>>
>>>> http://religion.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/978019934
>>>> 0378.001.0001/acrefore-9780199340378-e-335
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 30.07.2017 um 13:58 schrieb Mark Kohut:
>>>>
>>>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>>>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>>>
>>>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then
>>>> grace as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in
>>>> the text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although I
>>>>>> know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of Grace
>>>>>> within the religious tradition, for him
>>>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the cosmos---which
>>>>>> might all be predetermined, of course, per your observation---
>>>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day ends....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we
>>>>>>> didn't need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So,
>>>>>>> the opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite might
>>>>>>>> be damnation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of the
>>>>>>>> word?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <
>>>>>>>> jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit if
>>>>>>>>> you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you have
>>>>>>>>> clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>>>>>>>>>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very
>>>>>>>>>> recent essay.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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