Grace again. Misc.

[Mark Kohut]

Yeahp. When Lew experiences Grace, immediately after that explosion, as if
it sorta caused it almost, the narrator tells us this.

Which--Jochen reminding us of Hemingway's "grace under pressure" line---hit
me for the first time as another possible level of allusive 'ambiguity': a
little Hemingway joke.

On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

> There’s a difference, sometimes huge but sometimes tiny, between caring
> about what an author’s views or ideas are and those of his narrator.   I
> think we do have to care about what all the narrator here means his use of
> the word “grace”  because it’s a fair part of the book and it’s an
> important word.   Pynchon may or may not be having his narrator use it in
> complete accord with what he sits down seriously and consciously believes
> himself.
>
> So going into Pynchon’s background can be misleading but paying absolute
> attention to the context of the use in the narrator sections is vital.
>  Close reading time.
>
> Becky
> https://beckylindroos.wordpress.com
>
> > On Aug 5, 2017, at 6:48 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I  *really* don't care about what religion Pynchon was or is.  I prefer
> to read his works without him intruding.  His aversion to interviews
> indicates he feels the same way.
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:47 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Slothrop is, at least, an anti-Puritan.
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Aug 4, 2017, at 11:12 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >          My intention was to bring some background to the word and its
> religious roots and changing use .  It is my sense that P has deep historic
> knowledge of such core words and concepts and this is one of the few areas
> where I have some knowledge and research to draw on  myself because of my
> own history.  As far as Pynchon’s beliefs, I wonder if we know that much.
> It is my memory that he expressed interested in Catholicism as a university
> student, but I have never heard anything to indicate  that this
> interest/faith continued through his life or writing career. Do you have
> something that supports the idea that he remained a Catholic?   He shapes
> some pretty intense satiric fables pointed at Catholicism and Puritanism in
> V and GR.  The chums of chance have Christian overtones.
> > >> On Aug 4, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> All interesting, of course.
> > >>
> > >> But Pynchon is Catholic, not Protestant, not Calvinist.
> > >>
> > >> "Puritan" perhaps, as America is/was in his formative years and
> beyond, and before-- as many have written about.  Roth, The Last Puritan or
> THE PURITAN MIND, Larzer Ziff for examples, Ziff who tries to subtilize all
> the paradoxes and their hidden places in America and our minds.
> > >>
> > >> In Weber, Catholic Spain was a Spirit of Capitalism failure, just
> misc.
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPad
> > >>
> > >>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> The earliest appearance in the scriptures of the word has the usage
> of favor: Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. This use appears
> several times in Genesis and though some say it means mercy it seems to
> more specifically mean favor.( hence disgraced means shamed/lost from
> favor) So there is a Hebrew word( chen)meaning favor that is used
> frequently in the Torah and is taken up in the new testament
> > >>> by both the gospel writer of the book of John ( the law came by
> Moses, but grace and truth through Jesus)  and by Paul, who dominates
> theological interpretation of the life of Jesus( whom he never met, and
> appeared to know little of his  teachings as presented in the Gospels) .
> Paul was multi lingual as a preacher to Greeks, Syrians, Romans and was
> steeped in Hebrew, the scriptures,Phariseeism and probably Aramaic. It
> seems likely that he was taking the core concept and word from Genesis and
> giving it a particularly Christian mystical spin. Paul is the source of the
> concept of predetermination of the destiny of the individual to be either
> saved or lost.  That concept was challenged at the time by James, the
> brother of Jesus and leader of the early church in Jerusalem who did not
> care for Paul’s teachings, but again Paul dominates the churches
> interpretation  especially among the Protestants. For many protestants
> grace became the dividing line between salvation and damnation with this
> idea being most clearly enunciated by Calvin. The Puritans were Calvinists
> and P’s personal lineage though with an heretical streak..
> > >>>
> > >>> I agree with David Morris that despite this weighty background,
> Pynchon plays with the linguistic nuances that the word( grace of a dancer,
> graceful exit, graciuos host)  has acquired including letting  the Puritan
> heritage play out its role among the characters he creates. One must be
> careful to not overly connect the language of a pyncho character with his
> own beliefs or language.
> > >>>
> > >>> Luther and Calvin derive their concept of grace, Luther as a
> function of loving parental abundance and the" finished work of Christ “
> and Calvin more mechanistically as a kind of prearranged divine
> mathematics, from Paul.
> > >>>
> > >>> I spent a lot of years with the Bible and came away with some
> knowledge but little love for its sway in human affairs or my own life. The
> Pauine concept of grace and its theological explication seems diseased to
> me, a way of giving up agency and justifying powerful bullies. I personally
> use the word only when it is clear I am talking about elegant flow in art
> or physical movement. That human experience of the transcendent includes
> mercy and the renewal that mercy brings seems natural and does not  require
> a lot of theological pyrotechnics.  We don’t need to spend our lives going
> back and forth on the same bus going one way then the other. Just get off
> the bus and live.
> > >>>
> > >>> I see Pynchon as a humane satirist, a chronicler of alternative
> history from an outsider perspective, and wildly liberated spinner of 3
> dimensional stories that include mythos, conspracy theory,  colorful but
> credible fiction, and historic events in fairly equal measure.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Jul 29, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit if
> you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you have
> clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
> > >>>> I suggest "trump"
> > >>>> From: Mark Kohut
> > >>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
> > >>>> To: pynchon -l
> > >>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very recent essay.
> > >>>
> > >>> -
> > >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> > >> -
> > >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
> > >
> > > -
> > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
>
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