Was Pynchon influenced by Leary, R.A. Wilson?

Tue Aug 29 11:07:45 CDT 2017

Oh I get it, the Illuminatus is to be read by readers in training to read
the Rainbow.

What is it about the Rainbow that is explained or prepared for by these
other writers?

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 10:25 AM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
wrote:

> It also should have crossed your mind that the training wheels comment
> relates to the reader, not the writer. Nobody is saying RAW and Shea
> were Pynchons manque'. It's just that Illuminatus could rightly be
> seen as one of those books--along with Phil Dick, and/or William
> Gibson, and or Neal Stephenson--that a READER grapples with on the way
> to being able to handle Gravity's Rainbow.
>
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Seymour Landnau
> <seymourlandnau at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It crossed my mind that somebody, including me, especially me, might go,
> > "You think Inherent Vice is transcendent and sublime?"  Well, no.  I'm
> not
> > talking about those books, I'm talking about the main three.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Seymour Landnau <
> seymourlandnau at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> What's annoying about "Pynchon with training wheels" is the absurd and
> >> noxious suggestion that transcendent writing like Pynchon's can be
> learned.
> >> That with training you can wheel with the wizard.  You can't nobody can.
> >> Whether you believe that his consciousness comes from tiny flashes of
> light
> >> bopping about in his brain, or is channeled from a sixth dimensional
> >> Arcturan, anybody with half a brain would agree that whatever it is it
> is
> >> "god given".
> >>
> >> What makes the writing "divine" isn't its erudition, or the way it
> juggles
> >> vast concepts across the spectrum of human understanding with life's
> terrors
> >> and joys and everyday minutiae.  It's the singular(ity!) way it, the
> writing
> >> I mean, the way it, what's that word that describes the way you sort,
> of,
> >> string words together, in a way, how do you say, that's pleasing but,
> but
> >> what's more, is, it is, what's a word, what's a word, sublime.
> >>
> >> Nobody learns how to be sublime.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 4:49 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
> >> <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To me "Gravity's Rainbow with training wheels" sounds like a pretty
> good
> >>> description of Illuminatus!
> >>>
> >>> The last year in school all the cool people were reading it (in
> >>> translation). We made music, played theater, took a lot of drugs. And
> Shea &
> >>> Wilson (whose other books like Prometheus Rising or Cosmic Trigger
> were also
> >>> read at that time) provided a reference frame and introduced us to
> authors
> >>> like Lovecraft, Crowley and also Joyce. A-and It took just a couple of
> >>> months before I read my first Pynchon, which was Gravity's Rainbow in
> >>> translation ...
> >>>
> >>> So don't speak ill of Robert Anton Wilson!
> >>>
> >>> While Leary was certainly an ambivalent figure with a number of issues
> >>> (by this I'm not saying that he doesn't have merits in psychology and
> the
> >>> early psychedelic movement),  Wilson always appeared rather likeable
> to me.
> >>>
> >>> Whether Pynchon is actually "influenced" by the writings of Leary
> and/or
> >>> Wilson (here this could only be the case regarding Pynchon II), I do
> not
> >>> know. His writing simply takes place on a higher level.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Am 28.08.2017 um 10:52 schrieb Mark Kohut:
> >>>
> >>> Your " clearly" can't even be proven from what we know and, of course,
> >>> what most want to believe. And as if his habit of making
> "cross-disciplinary
> >>> connections"--wtf is THAT in him besides metaphors-making genius,
> praised
> >>> from Aristotle on as the highest kind of " intelligence".
> >>>
> >>> All of the annotating and criticism exploring P's creative sources and
> >>> jackshit re these guys.
> >>> He is too smart for all of them. Which is one reason THEY admire him.
> >>>
> >>> Wtf is that list in your post, from " music scale" to "control"? Seems
> to
> >>> me like a"junior-grade Pynchon" list satirizing literary criticism.
> >>>
> >>> "Junior-grade Pynchon" per that commenter means it is effectively a
> joke,
> >>> bad Pynchon parody.  Or else like Shakespeare retold for kids.
> >>>
> >>> A--and, I think you've got the dark web in BE about as wrong--although
> >>> again his ambiguous depth of symbolic use is not easily summarized--as
> can
> >>> be.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 12:33 AM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> People often consider Wilson and Shea's The Illuminatus Trilogy to be
> >>> junior-grade Pynchon, as in the link below, where one commenter
> >>> describes it as "Gravity's Rainbow with training wheels".
> >>>
> >>> http://www.librarything.com/topic/32913
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> >>> I have been reading Robert Anton Wilson’s Cosmic Trigger( 1 and 3) and
> am
> >>> now starting into some Leary writing, which I found one of the more
> >>> interesting parts of the Trigger books. Leary was more scientific than
> he is
> >>> credited with, though clearly was left in the lurch by the outlawing
> of the
> >>> intriguing chemistry brain interaction  which is one of the most
> fascinating
> >>> in nature’s pharmacy and deserves open scientific, therapeutic and
> artistic
> >>> inquiry.
> >>>
> >>> Clearly P experimented with the same substances and has the same habit
> of
> >>> making cross disciplinary connections as Leary and Wilson: music
> scale, male
> >>> female electro chemistry, poetry as code, alchemy, tarot, communication
> >>> accross time, psychology-science-political power games-control vs.
> freedom.
> >>> Both use humor in powerful ways, and Wilson read and admired P and
> Joyce
> >>> enormously. The main philosophic difference seems to be along the
> lines of
> >>> pessimism/ optimism for the human condition. Leary/Wison see the
> potential
> >>> to break non-functional conditioning whereas P sees those habits as
> more
> >>> pervasive and operating on dangerous feedback loops. For P
> >>> redemption/liberation/clarity is rare and individual with little
> impact on
> >>> the macrocosm. On the other hand, there is an arc of movement toward
> >>> optimism since GR.
> >>>
> >>> At the end of bleeding edge we are dropped off in a dangerous world
> made
> >>> worse by the police state approach to IT , but with a nodding
> invitation of
> >>> a departure into the  Deep web as an outpost of free exchange, ghosts
> and
> >>> new games. The internet and virtual reality were intriguing frontiers
> to
> >>> Leary/Wilson also.
> >>>
> >>> Any thoughts on a Leary, Pynchon, Wilson connection
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=nchon-l
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20170829/617b041e/attachment.html>