Katje's peer

Tue Jan 3 17:57:59 CST 2017

On the Dixon and Slave-Driver incident:

It is one of many stories told in Pynchon's novel _M&D_

What is Pynchon's purpose? Why does he include this story?

The  reliability of the narrator is worth considering.

Also, we might consider, not only who tells this story to whom but
also why he tells it? And, if he embellishes or changes the story.
what his purposes are.

Since it involves a historical figure, Dixon, and a slave-driver that
may or not have existed in history, that is, Pynchon may have lifted
the story from history (an actual encounter between Dixon and a
slave-driver), that is, a story in  Dixon's biography, or not, we
might to consider all of these possibilities and what they each mean.

One might argue, of course, that we needn't bother with any of this.
Just listen to it, enjoy the ride...so on.

Sometimes I prefer just listening to the jazz and sometimes I enjoy
analysis. researching the history and the like to discover what
Pynchon has done and speculating about why he did it.

Pynchon is beautiful frustrating fun.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 6:21 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> The slave-driver scene (which IS in M&D) was with Dixon, not Mason.  And I
> think it isn't fiction:
>
> http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/17th-august-1929/18/mason-and-dixons-line
>
> An incident in this survey is worth recording. One day when busy on it Dixon
> saw a slave-driver mercilessly belabouring a poor woman slave with his whip,
> whereon he approached him and said : " Thou must not do that," to which he
> got reply : " You be damned ; mayn't I do what I like with mine own ? " "
> No, thou mayest not, for I'll take thy whip from thee," which he promptly
> did, and gave him a sound thrashing with it. The whip was brought home as a
> trophy, and is now, I believe, in the Wilberforce Museum.
>
> http://masondixon.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Jeremiah_Dixon%27s_Biography
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 5:06 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There's a fun parascience phenomenon called The Mandela Effect in
>> which sizeable groups of people remember some historical fact firmly
>> and conclusively one way even though they're wrong - ie a lot of
>> people distinctly recall the Nelson Mandela died during the 80s, even
>> though that's manifestly untrue. A lot remember the kids book The
>> Berenstein Bears being spelled The Berenstain Bears. Heaps of other
>> examples. (My favourite is the comedian Sinbad playing a genie in the
>> movie Shazam, which never happened although I kind of remember it).
>> Anyway, as pointless as the concept is, I'm sure there are plenty of
>> examples of people misremembering Pynchon, perhaps more than almost
>> any other writer. I have crystal images of scenes from his works that
>> upon re-reading never existed. Just recently we talked here about the
>> M&D scene in which Mason heatedly confronts the slave-driver, which
>> doesn't actually happen in the book, yeah?
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > What is the usual Western rationality?
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 4:41 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Up to you, of course.  But when you say things like "The novel is too
>> >> deconstructive for the usual Western rationality,"  you should expect
>> >> some
>> >> blow-back, mostly because it is flat wrong.
>> >>
>> >> David Morris
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Bruno Nogueira <bruno.laze at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Didn't know amateur discussion was prohibited here. I'll go back to my
>> >>> lurker status.
>> >>> About being silly, sometimes I forget that most people avoid being
>> >>> earnest if it's not masked in irony, sarcasm, etc.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> 2017-01-03 15:13 GMT-06:00 Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I considered that, but thought my answer could use some
>> >>>> explication...or
>> >>>> maybe I just don't when to shut up!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 4:10 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Just in case you misunderstood, I was asking Bruno, not you, Keith.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thank you!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Ok, here's another answer. Most, possibly all, of the people who
>> >>>>>> come
>> >>>>>> here, and have been here for a while, are here because we're big
>> >>>>>> fans of
>> >>>>>> Pynchon's work. That means we've all put a lot of time into reading
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>> re-reading and discussing his work. Plenty of people here are ready
>> >>>>>> at any
>> >>>>>> time to jump into discussions of meaning and interpretation, e.g.
>> >>>>>> all of the
>> >>>>>> supportive response to Mike Jing's translation efforts.
>> >>>>>> Serious questions always, or usually, anyway, receive serious
>> >>>>>> responses. On the other hand, questions that have to do with
>> >>>>>> details that
>> >>>>>> can, and only in my humble opinion, should, be discovered by a
>> >>>>>> serious
>> >>>>>> reading of the text, are likely to be met with silly answers, or,
>> >>>>>> as would
>> >>>>>> have been better in the present case, on my part, no answer.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 2:15 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Are you trying to sound silly?  If so, good job!
>> >>>>>>> David Morris
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2017, Bruno Nogueira <bruno.laze at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> It is very pleasing to fill gaps in memory with imagination!
>> >>>>>>>> But you are right, Keith. I have lots of reading to do, as
>> >>>>>>>> always.
>> >>>>>>>> Don't we all?
>> >>>>>>>> Even so, someone said that GR should be read the way we listen to
>> >>>>>>>> jazz. Maybe words (/the music sheet) aren't that important as the
>> >>>>>>>> soul and
>> >>>>>>>> abstract meaning (/the phenomenology of music). Our abstract
>> >>>>>>>> concept of
>> >>>>>>>> Katje may be more important than the referential details. How do
>> >>>>>>>> you feel
>> >>>>>>>> about her? I suspect that, regarding GR, if we don't listen to
>> >>>>>>>> what we feel,
>> >>>>>>>> the whole novel implodes (like jazz!): nothing narrated is
>> >>>>>>>> trustworthy, is
>> >>>>>>>> it? Like the old hippie said: "I don't have words. I have a
>> >>>>>>>> soul."
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Katje is a spy? She works for whom? Us or Them?...
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> 2017-01-03 11:21 GMT-06:00 David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah,  I don't remember things the way Bruno tells them...
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> David Morris
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> You have some reading to do.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Www.innergroovemusic.com
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 3, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Bruno Nogueira
>> >>>>>>>>>> <bruno.laze at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Except that Katjer worked for the Germans, didn't she? My
>> >>>>>>>>>> memory
>> >>>>>>>>>> fails me---I remember one of her first episodes depicting a
>> >>>>>>>>>> threesome with
>> >>>>>>>>>> Blicero and Enzian, at the V2 shack, where they all lived like
>> >>>>>>>>>> rats. She was
>> >>>>>>>>>> then sent by Bliss to London, to spy on the White Visitation.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Btw, what is the relation between Pirate Prentice, Katje, and
>> >>>>>>>>>> Slothrop?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Happy new year to you all!
>> >>>>>>>>>> Bruno
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> 2017-01-02 16:53 GMT-06:00 Bob Berg
>> >>>>>>>>>> <robertberg5125 at comcast.net>:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/teenager-nazi-armed-resistance-netherlands-876?utm_source=dmfb
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> -
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > www.innergroovemusic.com
>> >
>
>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l