Katje's peer

Wed Jan 4 10:37:11 CST 2017

 I, obviously, agree with Morris as indicated by my sometimes excessive
posting and attempting to understand and 'read' GR in various ways. It is
also obvious to me that he and lots of others here do get somewhere in
explanation and exegesis and translation even---because of all the
translators on the list--as well as simple associative speculation. (Much
dicier of course). The Group Reads and threads and remarks in the archives
ALL attest to that, as Morris points out.

We try, among other things, to sometimes point out where we think some
disbelief in the "usual Western rationality" or "what can't be said in
words" is also IN Gravity's Rainbow--and TRP's other works as well. Is part
of Pynchon's themes and meanings. To quote Wittgenstein famously
again--"what can't be spoken of must be passed over in silence"--used
perhaps more broadly than LW meant it, dunno.

A--And I would suggest that two, the first two that came to my mind, major
elements of "the usual Western rationality" that Pynchon himself attacks in
GR are Western linearity, so to speak, from narratorial strategies thru its
eschatology (as we did explore in the last GR Read) and the Law of the
Excluded Middle, most overtly sabotaged in Lot 49, and both of these at
once and not linearly--embodying his anti-linearlity even here.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 4:41 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> Up to you, of course.  But when you say things like "The novel is too
> deconstructive for the usual Western rationality,"  you should expect some
> blow-back, mostly because it is flat wrong.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Bruno Nogueira <bruno.laze at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Didn't know amateur discussion was prohibited here. I'll go back to my
>> lurker status.
>> About being silly, sometimes I forget that most people avoid being
>> earnest if it's not masked in irony, sarcasm, etc.
>>
>>
>> 2017-01-03 15:13 GMT-06:00 Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I considered that, but thought my answer could use some explication...or
>>> maybe I just don't when to shut up!
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 4:10 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just in case you misunderstood, I was asking Bruno, not you, Keith.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, here's another answer. Most, possibly all, of the people who come
>>>>> here, and have been here for a while, are here because we're big fans of
>>>>> Pynchon's work. That means we've all put a lot of time into reading and
>>>>> re-reading and discussing his work. Plenty of people here are ready at any
>>>>> time to jump into discussions of meaning and interpretation, e.g. all of
>>>>> the supportive response to Mike Jing's translation efforts.
>>>>> Serious questions always, or usually, anyway, receive serious
>>>>> responses. On the other hand, questions that have to do with details that
>>>>> can, and only in my humble opinion, should, be discovered by a serious
>>>>> reading of the text, are likely to be met with silly answers, or, as would
>>>>> have been better in the present case, on my part, no answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 2:15 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you trying to sound silly?  If so, good job!
>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 3, 2017, Bruno Nogueira <bruno.laze at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is very pleasing to fill gaps in memory with imagination!
>>>>>>> But you are right, Keith. I have lots of reading to do, as always.
>>>>>>> Don't we all?
>>>>>>> Even so, someone said that GR should be read the way we listen to
>>>>>>> jazz. Maybe words (/the music sheet) aren't that important as the soul and
>>>>>>> abstract meaning (/the phenomenology of music). Our abstract concept of
>>>>>>> Katje may be more important than the referential details. How do you feel
>>>>>>> about her? I suspect that, regarding GR, if we don't listen to what we
>>>>>>> feel, the whole novel implodes (like jazz!): nothing narrated is
>>>>>>> trustworthy, is it? Like the old hippie said: "I don't have words. I have a
>>>>>>> soul."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Katje is a spy? She works for whom? Us or Them?...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2017-01-03 11:21 GMT-06:00 David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah,  I don't remember things the way Bruno tells them...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You have some reading to do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jan 3, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Bruno Nogueira <bruno.laze at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Except that Katjer worked for the Germans, didn't she? My memory
>>>>>>>>> fails me---I remember one of her first episodes depicting a threesome with
>>>>>>>>> Blicero and Enzian, at the V2 shack, where they all lived like rats. She
>>>>>>>>> was then sent by Bliss to London, to spy on the White Visitation.
>>>>>>>>> Btw, what is the relation between Pirate Prentice, Katje, and
>>>>>>>>> Slothrop?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Happy new year to you all!
>>>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2017-01-02 16:53 GMT-06:00 Bob Berg <robertberg5125 at comcast.net>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/teenager-nazi-armed-resis
>>>>>>>>>> tance-netherlands-876?utm_source=dmfb
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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