RIP Chuck Berry

Tue Mar 21 16:14:22 CDT 2017

I think guilt for a particular crime is always relative, and your posts
take a position of absolutism, at least in regards to the legality of sex
with a minor. Lawful sex has long history of being a moving target, and
still is.

Particulars are alway important in this regard.  Some here have pointed out
that Berry was hiring an age-illegal prostitute.  That particular has
value, for obvious reasons.  Chuck Berry isn't due a pass on this crime due
to his artistry, but his celebrity doesn't make him more guilty either.
And his guilt by no means lessens the value of his artistic achievements.

Wiki on Age of Consent History is very interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States

While the general age of consent is now set between 16 and 18 in all U.S.
states, the age of consent has widely varied across the country in the
past. In 1880, the age of consent was set at 10 or 12 in most states, with
the exception of Delaware where it was 7.[2] The ages of consent were
raised across the U.S. during the late 19th century and the early 20th
century.[3][4] By 1920 ages of consent generally rose to 16-18 and small
adjustments to these laws occurred after 1920. As of 2015 the final state
to raise its age of general consent was Hawaii, which changed it from 14 to
16 in 2001.

David Morris

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:41 PM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I don’t think that I *must* mourn anything.  He’s gone, and his art
> remains.
>
> Also, what does the fact that fictional characters committed the same
> crime *in a book*, have to do with whether or not Chuck Berry was a sex
> criminal?  I’ve actually found this pretty interesting.  I don’t want
> people to not enjoy his music, but I think it’s important to not ignore or
> dismiss the bad things he did.
>
> Something I noticed was that the first several people who reacted to what
> I said didn’t bother to say that he didn’t do it, they just said things
> along the line of “They only convicted him because he was a black man” and
> “The girl was a prostitute.”  I always find those reactions strange.
>
>
>
> *From: *Bruno <bruno.laze at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 4:05 PM
> *To: *"DuBois, John E." <jdubois at cabq.gov>
> *Cc: *David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>, Jochen Stremmel <
> jstremmel at gmail.com>, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>, Jemmy
> Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com>, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>,
> Pynchon Mailing List <pynchon-l at waste.org>, Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com
> >
> *Subject: *Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>
>
>
> Er... that sounded a bit fascist.
>
>
>
> 2017-03-21 12:11 GMT-05:00 DuBois, John E. <jdubois at cabq.gov>:
>
> I must say I find the whole discussion ironic to say the least.  First,
> you must always separate the art from the artist.  Second, have you people
> even read *Gravity’s Rainbow*?  Brigadier Ernest Pudding. Hello.  Miklos
> Thanatz. Hello.  Slothrop's pedophilic sex with Bianca. Hello.  You
> wouldn’t or shouldn’t be on this listserv if you don’t recognize the
> artistic value in what Pynchon is doing there.  Yet you are upset over
> allegations about indiscretions in the life of Chuck Berry?  I see a
> performance like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ROwVrF0Ceg and I am
> just in awe of the artistry.  If you choose not to mourn the man, so be it,
> but you must mourn the passing of the art.
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] *On
> Behalf Of *David Morris
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:22 AM
> *To:* Jochen Stremmel; Mark Thibodeau
> *Cc:* Jemmy Bloocher; Jesse Gooch; Pynchon Mailing List; Toby Levy
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>
>
>
> I also agree with Mark.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 9:14 AM Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I'm with Mark on this one.
>
>
>
> 2017-03-21 15:02 GMT+01:00 Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>:
>
> So, basically, by this standard, world history previous to 1935 was
> populated pretty much entirely by monsters, perverts, pedophiles, and
> genociders.
>
> Personally, I think it's more constructive to take a slightly elastic
> view, depending on the variables.
>
> MT
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Jemmy Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I'm with Jesse on this one.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I don’t really see what her being a prostitute has to do with it.  She
> >> could be a cannibal who fights dogs when she isn’t busy burning
> churches,
> >> and she would still be a child.  If a man sleeps with a prostitute and
> it
> >> happens to be a child, or if he has sex with a child and it is used
> against
> >> him by an inherently racist system, he is still having sex with a child.
> >> It’s not unfair that he went to jail for it, it’s unfair that others
> should
> >> have and didn’t because they didn’t share his status or skin color.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, March 20, 2017 at 3:46 PM
> >> To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The 14 year old girl was a prostitute. After the first mistrial she was
> >> arrested in another city for prostitution. Who knows what really
> happened 50
> >> years ago, but the charge of bringing a minor across state lines to
> have sex
> >> was brought to show an uppity Chuck Berry where he stood in society,
> not to
> >> protect the morals of the girl.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Did he not have sex with that girl?  Seems like there are several other
> >> articles that said he did.  I read a few before posting anything about
> it to
> >> make sure I wasn’t misremembering something.  I don’t doubt for a second
> >> that the prosecution was aided by him being a black man, if it had it
> been
> >> Elvis, there would have been no jail time.  Jerry Lee Lewis caught a
> lot of
> >> flack, but never actually went to jail for his child-bride either.
> Doesn’t
> >> mean he wasn’t having sex with that girl though.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, March 20, 2017 at 8:44 AM
> >> To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The only reason he went to jail for violating the Mann act was that he
> was
> >> black:
> >>
> >>
> >> http://heavy.com/entertainment/2017/03/chuck-
> berry-why-did-go-to-prison-jail-sentence-in-1960s-
> violate-mann-act-prostitution-tax-evasion/
> >>
> >> And the bathroom videotaping was a stupid thing to do but hardly rises
> to
> >> the charge of pedophilia.
> >>
> >> He was a great creative artist in the 1950s. He was not a great human
> >> being. But not a reprehensible villain.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:58 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I was in prison with some child molesters that could paint beautiful
> >> paintings, but they were pedophiles, not artists. I don’t disagree that
> >> Chuck Berry was a great musician.  He was incredibly talented and
> >> influential, but I feel like taping women while they shit in his
> restaurant,
> >> and having sex with 14-year-old girls, negates most of what a person
> does.
> >> I’m weird like that.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/20/17, 1:47 AM, "owner-pynchon-l at waste.org on behalf of Thomas
> >> Eckhardt" <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org on behalf of
> >> thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>     Am 20.03.2017 um 03:33 schrieb Jesse Gooch:
> >>
> >>     > Yeah, and after doing all of that travelling he got wealthy enough
> >> to secretly videotape women going to the bathroom.  Kind of a scumbag.
> >>
> >>     Yes. Also a great artist.
> >>     -
> >>     Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
>
>
>
>
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