Herero latest

[jody boy]

I don't think native Americans killed horses because they were ugly,
or couldn't be converted, as Pynchon plays with, vis-a-vis the Dodoes.
They killed them, apparently, to eat. And, I'm not quite so sure about
the claim that the disappearance of horses in the Americas can be
blamed solely on  human predation. Humans in other areas of the world
also ate (and eat) horses. It was probably more complex than that,
i.e., multifactorial.



On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a fascinating discussion, with interesting viewpoints contributed by
> all. I'm listening to the GR audio, and just heard, "the real business of
> the war is buying and selling". What struck me, Monte, is the distinction
> between colonialism and the tribalism  (?) displayed by the native North
> Americans after their acquisition (re-acquisition?) of horses.
> It seems to me that, though the impulses may be traced to the same source,
> what is different is the degree of complexity, and the distance traveled
> from one to the other. The level of technology involved in colonialism, the
> self-justification, the duplicity...
>
> Www.innergroovemusic.com
>
> On May 21, 2017, at 10:40 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And, of course, why should we confine ourselves to genocide perpetrated
>> against humans?
>
> Why, indeed? Do you know why the Europeans' horses were so startling to
> Native Americans in the early 1500s? Because their fucking ancestors -- not
> a Protestant among them -- had spent millennia hunting and eating and
> driving to extinction the horses that had EVOLVED in North America (some of
> whom had earlier migrated across the land bridge to Eurasia).
>
> Once the Spaniards' horses had spread northward tribe by tribe, they
> transformed the Southwest and Great Plains. The sedentary tribes of the 17th
> to 19th century, from pueblo-dwellers to the Chippewa near the Great Lakes,
> saw and suffered what the Comanche and Kiowa and Lakota Sioux became: not
> just mounted buffalo hunters but mounted raiders (very much like Aryans and
> Dorians, Scythians and Mongols had been in Eurasia), descending bloodily on
> their villages, departing with food stores and scalps, captive women and
> children.
>
> I'm sure it must have been that malign European influence. As you've just
> provided a fine example of the "all Africa's problems trace to colonialism"
> view I cited, no doubt you can connect the dots.
>
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 9:02 AM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Your sarcasm aside, an argument can be made, and I think with some
>> merit, that Western colonialism set the stages for those tragic
>> examples you've listed, especially their magnitude, by directly or
>> indirectly disrupting those cultures.
>>
>> Let's not forget the role of slavery and capitalism, symbolized by the
>> "twin gallows" in M&D, silhouetted in the clear freshening breeze of
>> St. Helena, as it wafted over from the African coast.
>>
>> Nor the role of Western science and technology, among which I- perhaps
>> uniquely- include Protestantism, as a form of social engineering, all
>> of which dovetailed with slavery and capitalism to engender a new and
>> exponentially more efficient means of chronic genocide, at
>> controllable rates and with predictable rates of return.
>>
>> And, of course, why should we confine ourselves to genocide
>> perpetrated against humans? The extinction of the Dodo as portrayed in
>> GR, seems to me more than just a metaphor for man's inhumanity to man,
>> but against the totality of nature and the environment we all depend
>> on.
>>
>> How does it go, the opening of GR?   "It's happened before, but
>> nothing like this..."  something to that effect.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> I think the uniqueness of the European (Western) example is unique
>> >
>> > Can't argue with that
>> >
>> >> Scale matters, and so does the belief system that undergirds and
>> >> justifies
>> >> the implementation of
>> > systematic genocide.
>> >
>> > I
>> > t was doubtless a great comfort to 2 million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs
>> > in
>> > 1947, 30 million Chinese in 1959-61, 1 million Indonesian Chinese in
>> > 1965-66, 2 million Cambodians in 1975-1979, 800,000 Rwandan Tutsi in
>> > 1994,
>> > and 5 million Congolese in 2003-2008 that their deaths were small-scale,
>> > unsystematic, non-genocidal, and not in the service of the Western
>> > belief
>> > system.
>> >
>> > On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 6:17 PM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  Couple, three points:
>> >>
>> >> I am not in competition with you to cite evidence of "the overwhelming
>> >> edge in power and organized aggression of the European expansion over
>> >> nearly all the indigenous people it encountered in Africa, Asia, and
>> >> the New World." I don't claim to be an historian.
>> >>
>> >> Secondly, I am not convinced that all human cultures are equivalently
>> >> predisposed to "eat the apple," etc. I think the uniqueness of the
>> >> European (Western) example is unique and it is precisely that
>> >> uniqueness that Pynchon is concerned with. Scale matters, and so does
>> >> the belief system that undergirds and justifies the implementation of
>> >> systematic genocide.
>> >>
>> >> Lastly, it seems obvious to point out, that all human societies are
>> >> capable, push to shove, of atrocity, but that gives short shrift to
>> >> the uniqueness of the Western version. There are hints in the texts of
>> >> another type of uniqueness- perhaps the flip side of the same coin,
>> >> that there is something special- especially good- about "us," that we
>> >> have something unique to offer the rest of the planet that may yet
>> >> turn out to be decisive. In order for that to happen, "we" need to be
>> >> especially honest.
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > "False equivalence"? I don't question for one second -- and venture
>> >> > that
>> >> > I
>> >> > could cite a lot more evidence than you could for -- the overwhelming
>> >> > edge
>> >> > in power and organized aggression of the European expansion over
>> >> > nearly
>> >> > all
>> >> > the indigenous people it encountered in Africa, Asia, and the New
>> >> > World.
>> >> >
>> >> > But I don't agree that it "rubs salt in the wounds of the victims" to
>> >> > acknowledge that there *were* many indigenous, warlike, expansionist,
>> >> > slave-taking empires -- Chinese, Indian, Mongol, Central and West
>> >> > African,
>> >> > Mexica (Aztec), Inca, Five Nations -- before the Europeans arrived.
>> >> > Or
>> >> > that
>> >> > their interactions with Europeans got complicated:
>> >> >
>> >> > - the Huron and Mohicans playing English and French for guns in their
>> >> > own
>> >> > immemorial war, while the English and French were playing them
>> >> > - Indian rajahs and sultans doing the same against each other with --
>> >> > and
>> >> > typically marching with -- troops of the British East India Company,
>> >> > French,
>> >> > and Portuguese
>> >> > - Cortes taking Tenochtitlan with 750 Spaniards -- and 80,000 or more
>> >> > Tlaxcalan and other allies he'd recruited, who cheerfully slaughtered
>> >> > their
>> >> > erstwhile Mexica overlords
>> >> >
>> >> > You call these "unique"; I call them ubiquitous. It's the Herero
>> >> > "war,"
>> >> > the
>> >> > Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, that are more nearly unique
>> >> > precisely
>> >> > because they were so one-sided; the victims had *no* state, allies or
>> >> > organized military power of their own. That doesn't mean everything
>> >> > that
>> >> > happened from 1450 to 1950 was the same story writ large.
>> >> >
>> >> > Nor does it mean that other, less helplessly "pure" victims, deserved
>> >> > or
>> >> > asked for what imperialism/colonialism did to them. It doesn't
>> >> > exculpate
>> >> > Europeans from any of their bloody 500-year spree. It just means that
>> >> > *all*
>> >> > humans are liable to eat the apple (drink the Kool-aid?) of power and
>> >> > domination when they can.
>> >> >
>> >> > Pynchon spends a lot of time exploring the specifically European and
>> >> > USAn
>> >> > expressions of that, and it leaves a mark -- as it should. But he
>> >> > also
>> >> > dips
>> >> > via Calvinism to Adam's fall and other mythologies, visits ancient
>> >> > ruins
>> >> > and
>> >> > legends, zooms out to millennia rather than centuries -- and those
>> >> > are
>> >> > reminders (I think deliberate) that it's not *all* about us.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:55 AM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  I think it is pretty clear, and that bringing up the divisions,
>> >> >> infighting and betrayal among the Herero amounts to a false
>> >> >> equivalence.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm not insinuating that you endorse or excuse the genocide in any
>> >> >> way, but each of those examples you listed are unique. Lumping them
>> >> >> together rubs salt in the wounds of the victims.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:29 AM, Monte Davis
>> >> >> <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Gotcha. All clear now.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 8:42 PM, jody boy <jodys.gone2 at gmail.com>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> This is an example of white European Christians travelling
>> >> >> >> thousands
>> >> >> >> of miles to the homeland of native Africans, colonizing it, and
>> >> >> >> then
>> >> >> >> rounding up the natives and systematically exterminating them.
>> >> >> >> The
>> >> >> >> only complexity about this is the twisted, convoluted arguments
>> >> >> >> about
>> >> >> >> why they did it, and why they should not be held accountable.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "Oh, but it's more complicated than that..."  I'm reminded of
>> >> >> >> Archduke Ferdinand playing the dozens. Oh, and his trophy's- if
>> >> >> >> he
>> >> >> >> even bothered to have the carcasses stuffed- littering the
>> >> >> >> plains.
>> >> >> >> Or,
>> >> >> >> those brave "souls" riding along
>> >> >> >> on the first transcontinental railroad shooting the buffalo until
>> >> >> >> their fingers got tired.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Let's get real here, and not obfuscate like the ink of a white
>> >> >> >> octopus.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:55 AM, e tb <eburns at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Salt in old wounds: What Germany owes Namibia | The Economist
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21721918-saying-sorry-atrocities-century-ago-has-so-far-made-matters-worse-what
>> >> >> >> -
>> >> >> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
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