Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.

Mon Oct 30 08:26:50 CDT 2017

Wait, wait—Roger Waters, The Wall guy, may harbor evil thoughts? Didn't the protagonist of The Wall become a Nazi? And what's antisemitic about denying hurricane victims aid? I feel like I'm treading in fake news sometimes. 

> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:52 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> 
> Xenophobia has many forms. I  knew a Russian Jew who despised German Jews.  Even some Buddhists are doing ethnic cleansing. I think people are insecure about their social identity because for most it is tenous and flimsy. People who grow up in tradition-rich stable communities are rare. More and more we see bloodlines cross, religions fade, people move around,  wars and greed breed new wars and new hate, and hatred and fear of some group seems to mark most human attempts at identity And the whole question is couched in a few decades of life in a constantly changing body and mind.  Naturally, people look around for something solid and  everywhere  get messages that their social identity is important and a matter life and death.  Really?   What exactly do you lose when you don’t accept this arrangement? Is it possible that much of what you lose is dangerous labels designed to favor some and discredit others ?  
> Identity plays a role of  convenient fiction. I appear one thing to artist friends, another to Quaker friends, another to each family ember, another in political communication, another in poetry; all these forums are changing as I am changing and all are fully real and also profoundly imaginary. 
> 
> It appears to my observation that all blanket hatreds and labels tend to demean those who use them, even the blanket hatred of Republicans, fascists, criminals. It ends dialog before it has a chance either to live or die. But I also sympathize with the anger that gets directed at those who people  who are part of the abuse. One starts hating an evil act, moves to hating the person or group that did it and when they get off without censure the anger begins to be pointed at a whole religion or ethnicity or party.  It is disturbing to watch what is taking place in Israel, disturbing to be told you are anti semitic to criticize, disturbing to watch brilliant Jewish critics of the treatment of non-Jews lose academic posts, be marginalized, be labeled self-hating Jews.  I admire Roger Waters for taking up this cause, am disturbed that so few public figures do. Now we have laws saying it is criminal to support BDS. 
>  The history of Zionism and Judaism are explored in many intersting and historically surprising ways in Shlomo Sand’s  The Invention of the Jewish People. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 28, 2017, at 6:57 PM, Laura Kelber <laurakelber at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> This is a painful topic for me. I loathe the right-wing militaristic Zionistic wing of Jewish identity. I come from the communist and/or politically progressive, secular strain that helped shape the intellectual life of NYC when I was growing up in the 60s. Now it's the rightwing Orthodox and Hasidic Jews that dominate the Jewish community. Where the hell did all the secular, progressive Jews go?
>> But much as I loathe both the American and Israeli strains of Zionism, I'm hypersensitive to the antisemitism that simmers below the surface of a lot of so-called progressive groups and individuals. A failure to recognize and protest the antisemitism of the alt-right and white supremacists, for example. A willingness to buy into the "rich Jewish banker" and "Jewish-controlled media" stereotypes. Hell, I buy into some of those stereotypes myself, sometimes. But I'm allowed to, because I'm Jewish. Non-Jews, proceed with caution! I don't need a disclaimer about how your best friend is Jewish, but I do need to hear an acknowledgement that antisemitism exists and that Jews of any ideology have a right to be paranoid about it.
>> 
>> Even though antisemitic signs were prominently displayed in Charlotte, VA, none of the knee jerk lefty emails I got mentioned antisemitism. It just isn't sexy to decry antisemitism. Look, I can understand that. Black people are beaten, murdered and incarcerated all over this country every fucking day. That's not happening to Jews. 
>> 
>> But there is and always has been an antisemitic strain in this country, and, perhaps stoked by the internet, it's become particularly virulent lately. It was ever-present in the construction industry when I worked there in the 80s and 90s. Job sites were frequently racially and ethnically segregated, and I was often placed in the "Jew crew." Not uncommon for us to bear the brunt of being "tightwad Jews" or, in my case, a "Jewess cunt." "Hey, you know who the world's biggest cunt is? Hitler, 'cause he couldn't even finish the job!" And so on.
>> 
>> Just recently made the mistake of reading the comments on a mainstream news story about Weinstein. The comments started in on the "typical Jewish" behavior of that trio - Weinstein, Polanski and Woody Allen, then on to how they were a disgrace to the white race, and finally, to an argument about whether Jews could even be considered white.
>> 
>> So, yeah, it's obnoxious when anyone who's legitimately outraged by Israel's racist/militaristic actions gets branded an antisemite. But it would be nice if those same anti-zionists expressed a little dismay over the seething hatred of Jews that so many non-Jews seem to foster. Because it's pretty disturbing.
>> 
>> Laura
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 28, 2017 4:41 PM, "da kid" <peterock86 at live.com> wrote:
>> From: da kid <peterock86 at live.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 8:05:33 AM
>> To: Mark Thibodeau
>> Subject: Re: Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.
>> 
>> Im not that smart but I think it is really really really sad that people feel they have to write a paragraph that attempts to prove they don't hate Jews before they can criticize Israel. I am also what you call a philo-semite but Israel's treatment of Palestine is abhorrent. The recent hubbub about Hebron, which is in Palestine, not being called Israeli is another recent example of false "anti-Semitism" accusations being thrown about. There is definitely a rich and powerful right wing pro Israeli lobby in America. That's not antiSemitic to say is it? 
>> From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on behalf of Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 3:52:59 AM
>> To: pynchon -l
>> Subject: Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.
>> 
>> First things first... and I hate that I have to state this up front (but considering the subject matter, I feel that I must)... I am not an anti-Semite. In fact, if anything, I'm a Judeophile, or philo-Semite. Many of my heroes are Jews. I think Jewish women are among the world's must beautiful. I have many Jewish friends, some of whom are among my closest and most beloved. In short, I am no Jew-hater.
>> 
>> But I'm also a huge fan or the musician Roger Waters. A lifelong admirer of both his music and his obvious sincere, passionately held beliefs. Lately, I've noticed a significant uptick in attacks on Waters from pro-Israeli news outlets. This week, I learned that there is actually an entire documentary film that's been shot, apparently with the sole objective of smearing him as an anti-Semite. 
>> 
>> While Waters is definitely an opponent of the current regime in Israel, and an advocate for Palestinian rights up to and including lending his support to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, I also have seen a lot of accusations made against him with little to zero supporting evidence (video, audio, etc). And I definitely think the attacks on him have taken on a dangerously aggressive tone.
>> 
>> And then, today, I ran across this article...
>> 
>> https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.819132?v=448801475EBF52877C3C6DDD9BA51DFF
>> 
>> 
>> My first compulsion was to check with Snopes, even though the original article is from an Israeli paper, just to see if maybe I'd fallen for an elaborate prank. There I find...
>> 
>> https://www.snopes.com/texas-harvey-israel/
>> 
>> And as I read, my blood runs a little bit cold. 
>> 
>> So I guess my question to you folks here is... 
>> 
>> What the fuck is going on here? And in what universe does anyone think denying aid to victims of natural disasters unless they pledge never to take part in the BDS movement isn't going to backfire spectacularly?
>> 
>> Jerky
>> 
>>    Virus-free. www.avg.com
> 
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