More of the same,only different.

Tue Feb 20 13:05:05 CST 2018

I like the idea of re-framing the dialogue. Take "left", "progressive,"
etc. right out of the polemic by aligning ourselves as "conservatives" in
the sense that we seek to retain and reinstate the values of the New Deal
that led to such powerful growth in the middle class that the oligarchs
panicked and gave us first Nixon, then Reagan and his political progeny
posing their neoliberal anarchism as "conservative," thus winning over the
social conservatives who recoiled under the advance of technology and
other-than-Christian systems of belief.

It was New Deal sophistication that led to the increased role in
international affairs North America played up until the last election.

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 10:44 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm done arguing.....again....you can preach here all you want...
>
> despite my showing once again your shell game, your three-card monty con
> of almost ALWAYS rising to a level of general 'truths' and
> refusing to answer my specific questions---I asked why you were so
> negative about clearly stated by both of us mutual small bore events and
> situations...
>
> You will ALWAYS be right AND most often VERY WRONG.......with this
> double-bind logic...
>
> Another very wrong local judgment: (as I see it, views from a balloon are
> not very clear)
> ......"defrauded  the US by using politics to benefit his financial greed.
> This is the real problem and seems to be the gist of the early
> indictments."
>
> A probable majority of speculative legal commentators agree that the
> hardest cases to prove or make are any involving the Emoluments Clause.
> Read this
> in the Constitution and see why.
>
>  "To my mind the Russian role in the election was negligible"
> I think you should change your mind but it is hard to admit one is wrong,
> I know.....I know that at least has moved from HOAX, WITCH HUNT, I think...
> But the point is not WHAT ULTIMATE effect on the election it may have
> had--which of course will be impossible to prove so you will always be
> 'right' when you maintain we can't know and with millions of
> votes....well,....; one point is whether Russia can or has blackmailed the
> President of the US; whether the Pres of the US is being of has been played;
> another is whether major national security decisions were made because of
> perceived favoritism, both ways or one way--see the Repub platform re
> Ukraine; see the sanctions (and the declared
> non-enforcement of the latest congressionally passed sanctions by huge
> massively bipartisan 95% margins or so--or new sanctions; the latest
> surfacing yesterday about Mueller now tightening
> on Kushner because of $$ deals that might have effected Qatar and China
> decisions.....
>
> And more.
>
> my judgment call vs yours::
>  "Money is the way to bring this shithead down"....I respectfully
> disagree--see above---but also if his acts only involve money, do you think
> the Repubs will ever move to 'bring him down'? If he is
> charged with massive fraud and money-laundering before he was President,
> then criminal charges can be placed by NY State attorneys, etc.
>
> I also believe that IF Trump is out somehow before his administration is,
> the Repub Party earthquake will weaken them...further....and Pence will not
> be elected in 202, I say tentatively.
> Yes, I am working for wholesale change at all levels of government as I
> know you are and we all probably are.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
>> Why am I so negative? Basically the US has made itself and its leaders
>> almost immune from criminal prosecution including war crimes far more
>> horrific than anything Trump did. He is just a fat greedy racist sexist
>> mobster who managed to reveal the inner nature of the Republican party.
>>
>> I am cautious about anything that does not change the core political
>> debates about war the environment, health-care,  or  the common good vs.
>> the oligarchy.
>>
>> That said Mueller is a shrewd dude and Trump is getting nervous.  Mueller
>> may be building a case that Trump has consistently  defrauded  the US by
>> using politics to benefit his financial greed.
>> This is the real problem and seems to be the gist of the early
>> indictments. This defines everything Trump is and also defines the problem
>> we need to face as a country far more than fcebook memes.
>>
>>  To my mind the Russian role in the election was negligible and the idea
>> tha Putin controls Trump is dumb. Trump can’t control Trump.  The Guccifer
>> as Russia case may not be provable, and it may not even be true. I don’t
>> care because the emails were legitimate news that showed a hidden side of
>> Hillry Clinton that deserved exposure. But persuasive prosecutable
>> evidence  that the hacks were Russian has not been presented so far.
>>
>>  Money is the way to bring this shithead down, but that will probably
>> leave Pence in office.  What is needed is a reform movement  that brings
>> serious progressive change and breaks the big money and military control of
>> the US government and the 2 parties. One can work for that or sit around
>> and hope that Mueller saves the day and gives us Pence or Mitch McConnel.
>> There is no constitutional mechanism for an interim election.
>>
>> > On Feb 19, 2018, at 9:25 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > " The original Rosenstein letter for the investigation only authorizes
>> investigation into collusion with Russia.  It is possible that other crimes
>> will not be able to be disclosed."
>> >
>> > Yes that is "possible" but why, when the past shows every example of
>> greater possibilities and realities, are you so negative? Lawyer-like?
>> Skepticism in the service of
>> > "Just the facts.Ma'am"....?  OK, respect that...i just think
>> >
>> > see what else all special prosecutors have brought forward. See
>> Clinton's impeachment HAVING NOTHING to do with the Special Prosecutor's
>> remit. Notice that at least bank fraud
>> > has already been charged against one of more of Team Trump.
>> >  And more, and more.
>> >
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_prosecutor
>> >
>> >
>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>
>
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