More underestimation of the Russians ' effect on the 2016 US election and government

[Joseph Tracy]

Pre-emptive surrender. Yuck.   Tell it to your children while the world burns.  

Any way what you are saying has nothing to do with the topic of whether thare is a deep state and whether it was the Russians or as I contend the combination of no-good-choice and hate-mongering opportunism carefully managed by the Kochs, Mercer, Peter Thiel, Fox News and other funders of team T-Rump. The role of the deep state in all this is  important, The rise of executive power, the management of the media to promote couterproductive wars, and carefully plotted events to distract people from their real problems  and their real common interests. 

But yes Rich and Jody there actually are people and organizations with greater power than consumers, who make important decisions that affect huge numbers,  otherwise you wouldn’t really be worried about Trump, would you? And yes there are many consistent policies and players who are permanenty embedded in decision making roles, who shape fundamental global policies and  who profit from the war machine, from toxic dumping, fossil fuel powered shipping, nuclear power,  mining and drilling, and from fossil fuel agriculture. All of these power consortiums promote wastefulness and dump toxics on  a scale and concentration that far exceeds consumers’ role. This has been studied pretty thoroughly. There are also many poor people who are not consuming much of anything but food and clothes, these are often the first climate refugees. I am not at all discounting the importance of consumerism but the scale is weighted on the other side; otherwise the money wouln’t be so decisively inclined in the direction of the rich, the government, the police, the military  .




> On Jan 15, 2019, at 5:41 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm sure everyone here is familiar with this stuff:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_the_Leisure_Class
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 8:15 PM jody2.718 <jody2.718 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I got to go with Rich on this one. All the influences that Joseph names are minuscule compared the daily heedless consumption and pooping into the environment of toxic, non-recyclable garbage by the average citizen. All the malevolent forces involved with the control of production and marketing of.same would dry up and blow away if ordinary people stopped consuming those overly convenient, and generally useless, products. They (we) won't and so we're probably doomed, sooner rather then later.
>> 
>> jody
>> 
>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>> 
>> Richard:
>> 
>> I don’t deny these elements exist. I just think the world sub rosa is a chaotic place. I don’t believe anyone is running anything. It’s this vast convoluted horrific at times nexus of ever changing alliances, some good some bad
>> 
>>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is actually much easier for most to believe there is no deep state. That seems rather naive at this point. I would be happy to elaborate on what that means to me and to those who use this particular phrase. What most mean is the nexus of several forces: 1) Central bankers and the multi-national corporate lawyers who have elaborated a system of tax avoidance and who shape trade policy, often directly writing that policy( as opposed to theoretically sovereign representative governments) 2) All the secretive spy agencies British, US, Israeli, Germany, French… and  their connections to fundamental international policies of the Nato Powers and the dollar  as international reserve currency. 3) The neo -liberal corporate or state owned media that dominates the international media landscape 4) the power and influence of the fossil fuel industry in all its forms. 5) the arms and war industry
>>> 
>>> All of these forces combine to endorse and enforce the powers of capitalism and militarism  wherever these combined interests wish to override any of the following democratic forces: independent democratic choices by voters, accountability of the rich for financial or environmental crimes, accountability of warcrimes and those who perpetrate them etc., accountability of corporate human crimes like Bhopal, asbestos exposure, carcinogen exposure,  or global warming,  accountability for dumping of plastics and toxics etc., accountability for interference in democratic processes( Chile, Venezuela,Tibet,  Nicaragua, Iran, Brazil, Argentina, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Vietnam…. very long list)
>>> 
>>> The deep state evolved at the nexus of government, military and money interests to protect the long term interests of powerful capitalists and imperial armies from the prospect of democratic movements that seek to put human and environmental issues above financial profit for the elite and  the sick pride of imperial colonialist dominance.
>>> 
>> --
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