More underestimation of the Russians ' effect on the 2016 US election and government

[Mike Jing]

Ah, socialism. I guess nobody has tried that one yet.


On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 6:52 AM Mike Weaver <mike.weaver at zen.co.uk> wrote:

> Unfortunately Joseph, that is an obviously idealistic solution not an
> obvious political one. Political solutions start from what is and have a
> way to what will be. Since socialism became popular at the end of the
> 19th C, millions of people have worked on a political solution to the
> class division of society and it isn't clear if a lasting one has yet
> been found. Them having the guns, the good Jim nonwithstanding, has
> proved the clincher,  despite us having the numbers.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On 20/01/2019 06:55, Joseph Tracy wrote:
> > The thing is that there is a screamingly obvious political solution:
> Fuck the the rich and put everyone underpaid or unemployed , black brown
> and white, to good paying work on a sustainable green economy, make the
> quality standards of the project extremely high, modeled after the best
> green tech in the world . Good medical care for all .  Collect taxes from
> everyone  and move  a serious chunk of the war money into more peaceful
> investments. This is not only possible,  It is  a proven message as Bernie
> showed when he drew the fastest growing crowds and attracted more
> grassroots money than anyone for a  long time with complete antipathy from
> the media who gave more time to Trump’s empty podium.
> >
> >> On Jan 19, 2019, at 10:30 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Obviously all goods and services are consumed by consumers. People like
> to be comfortable .  But consumers don’t decide to wrap practially every
> object in a plastic bubble, consumers don’t choose to ship everything from
> China, consumers don’t pump millions of barrels of oil while lying about
> global warming despite internal corporate research, or corrupt the voting
> and political system.   Consumers do not spend millions to make
> environmental policies that allow Dow to dump toxics into local water
> supplies. A handful of greedy people shape those policies for short term
> gains. Global environmental movements are huge and almost completely
> ignored  on a global scale, largely because of the US government ( either
> party, both shitty on fossil fuels)
> >>   Some countries have better policies and practices  but they are often
> punished and there is a great deal of economic, political and military
> bullying that shapes global policies. If the US can persuade people to
> support insane wars that make billions for a few, surely that power could
> be used to stand behind environmentally sound cradle-to-grave
> responsibility for manufacturers and a deep move toward sustainable energy
> policies. There are very few things that cannot be made sustainably.
> >>   Consumer habits obviously have to change. We cannot consume beef and
> fish at the current rate using current practices. Plastic has to be severly
> cut back. Investments in  Conservation of heat and transport  are needed in
> a massive green new deal.  The products we use should have far longer
> lifespans and longer warranties and be reasonably repairable. There should
> be a high cost to the manufacturer or consumer to dispose of non recyclables
> >>   It is when and what needs to change that reveals the entrenched power
> of the corporatized and militarized government. But our personal addictions
> are also critical:  Lifetime personal air travel needs to be severely
> rationed, all forms of  greenhouse gas producing non-renewable energy need
> to be downgraded to zero with all due speed.
> >>   These goals are not insane, but they sound insane to those who have
> adapted themselves To a world in which
> >> Approximately 82 percent of the money generated last year went to the
> richest 1 percent of the global population, the report said, while the
> poorest half saw no increase at all
> >> Last year, Oxfam said billionaires saw an uptick of $762 billion —
> enough to end extreme poverty seven times over
> >> OXFAM numbers published by CNBC
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Consumers have huge environmental impact
> >>>
> >>> We like to blame the government or industries for the Earth's
> >>> problems, but what we buy makes a big difference
> >>>
> >>> Date:February 24, 2016Source:Norwegian University of Science and
> >>> TechnologySummary:You won't make big cuts in your environmental impact
> >>> by taking shorter showers or turning out the lights. The real
> >>> environmental problem, a new analysis has shown, is embodied in the
> >>> things you buy.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160224132923.htm
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 8:15 PM jody2.718 <jody2.718 at protonmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> I got to go with Rich on this one. All the influences that Joseph
> names are minuscule compared the daily heedless consumption and pooping
> into the environment of toxic, non-recyclable garbage by the average
> citizen. All the malevolent forces involved with the control of production
> and marketing of.same would dry up and blow away if ordinary people stopped
> consuming those overly convenient, and generally useless, products. They
> (we) won't and so we're probably doomed, sooner rather then later.
> >>>>
> >>>> jody
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
> >>>>
> >>>> Richard:
> >>>>
> >>>> I don’t deny these elements exist. I just think the world sub rosa is
> a chaotic place. I don’t believe anyone is running anything. It’s this vast
> convoluted horrific at times nexus of ever changing alliances, some good
> some bad
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is actually much easier for most to believe there is no deep
> state. That seems rather naive at this point. I would be happy to elaborate
> on what that means to me and to those who use this particular phrase. What
> most mean is the nexus of several forces: 1) Central bankers and the
> multi-national corporate lawyers who have elaborated a system of tax
> avoidance and who shape trade policy, often directly writing that policy(
> as opposed to theoretically sovereign representative governments) 2) All
> the secretive spy agencies British, US, Israeli, Germany, French… and
> their connections to fundamental international policies of the Nato Powers
> and the dollar  as international reserve currency. 3) The neo -liberal
> corporate or state owned media that dominates the international media
> landscape 4) the power and influence of the fossil fuel industry in all its
> forms. 5) the arms and war industry
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All of these forces combine to endorse and enforce the powers of
> capitalism and militarism  wherever these combined interests wish to
> override any of the following democratic forces: independent democratic
> choices by voters, accountability of the rich for financial or
> environmental crimes, accountability of warcrimes and those who perpetrate
> them etc., accountability of corporate human crimes like Bhopal, asbestos
> exposure, carcinogen exposure,  or global warming,  accountability for
> dumping of plastics and toxics etc., accountability for interference in
> democratic processes( Chile, Venezuela,Tibet,  Nicaragua, Iran, Brazil,
> Argentina, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Vietnam…. very long list)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The deep state evolved at the nexus of government, military and
> money interests to protect the long term interests of powerful capitalists
> and imperial armies from the prospect of democratic movements that seek to
> put human and environmental issues above financial profit for the elite
> and  the sick pride of imperial colonialist dominance.
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
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