A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

[Jonathon Hunt]

I don't have a job right now and am exhausted after spending my day
yesterday getting people out of jail who were violently arrested for
protesting police violence, but after I rest a bit I may make time to read
the letter as I am sure the letter signed by David Frum raises some oh-so
important points about free speech.

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 11:57 AM Gary Webb <gwebb8686 at gmail.com> wrote:

> ***Paul Beatty lol not the dude from Deliverance
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:37 PM, Gary Webb <gwebb8686 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone read Kanye’s interview:
> >
> >
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/randalllane/2020/07/08/kanye-west-says-hes-done-with-trump-opens-up-about-white-house-bid-damaging-biden-and-everything-in-between/#488b548047aa
> >
> > I kind of missed the whole Kanye thing. Some younger friends are fans,
> and I’ve read some very esoteric social media discussions about his albums.
> I probably disagree with about 99 % of what he says, but I admire his
> spirit. The whole interview kind of reads like Ned Beatty’s The Sellout.
> >
> > The birthday party lol... but it would be foolish to underestimate him,
> in 2016 this would be dismissed as laughable nonsense... in 2020 he gets an
> interview in Forbes... in 2024?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >> It is.
> >>
> >> Like all those political purity tests I read about in the "bad'
> movements
> >> of history, LOL.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 7:15 AM Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I know that one of the signers taking her name off is a trans advocate,
> >>> for whom the presence of JKRowling and Jesse Signal probably represent
> a
> >>> bridge too far (causing her to demand that her name be removed AND beg
> her
> >>> Twitter followers to please forgive her for the incalculable damage
> that
> >>> affixing her name to such a diabolical document has no doubt already
> >>> wrought upon The CommunityTM.
> >>>
> >>> It's all just so ridiculously lunatic.
> >>>
> >>> Jerky
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020, 7:06 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Agree, Hasty and virtually ad hoc..and FOR intellectuals in the PUBLIC
> >>>> SPHERE--see Habermas---
> >>>> and academic sphere mostly. I doubt if he was asked.
> >>>>
> >>>> What is so unexpectedly infuriating is how contentious this has
> already
> >>>> become, Matty
> >>>> Yglesias has been complained to his mannagement about BY A
> COLLEAGUE....??
> >>>>
> >>>> A couple other "liberals" are now regretting they signed because of
> some
> >>>> non-liberals (it seems) who signed, which
> >>>> is kinda self-refuting, no?
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:37 AM Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> i dunno... the list of signatures is actually kind of small, in my
> >>>>> opinion.
> >>>>> Small enough that I don't consider the lack of Pynchon's name (or
> >>>>> Delillo's, or Vollmann's, or Price's, all of whom have actually
> >>>>> contributed
> >>>>> pieces to Harper's in recent years) to be particularly noteworthy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For what it's worth, I agree with the general sentiment of the letter
> >>>>> AND I
> >>>>> wear antifa t-shirts tees (figuratively... I don't actually own any
> >>>>> sloganwear),
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers!
> >>>>> yer old pal Jerky
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:24 AM Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
> >>>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So many smart people signed this necessary letter, --- Pynchon
> didn't.
> >>>>>> Was he just too lazy? Didn't they ask him? Or does he really wear
> >>>>>> 'antifa'-t-shirts?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> + Our cultural institutions are facing a moment of trial. Powerful
> >>>>>> protests for racial and social justice are leading to overdue
> demands
> >>>>>> for police reform, along with wider calls for greater equality and
> >>>>>> inclusion across our society, not least in higher education,
> >>>>> journalism,
> >>>>>> philanthropy, and the arts. But this needed reckoning has also
> >>>>>> intensified a new set of moral attitudes and political commitments
> that
> >>>>>> tend to weaken our norms of open debate and toleration of
> differences
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>> favor of ideological conformity. As we applaud the first
> development,
> >>>>> we
> >>>>>> also raise our voices against the second. The forces of illiberalism
> >>>>> are
> >>>>>> gaining strength throughout the world and have a powerful ally in
> >>>>> Donald
> >>>>>> Trump, who represents a real threat to democracy. But resistance
> must
> >>>>>> not be allowed to harden into its own brand of dogma or
> coercion—which
> >>>>>> right-wing demagogues are already exploiting. The democratic
> inclusion
> >>>>>> we want can be achieved only if we speak out against the intolerant
> >>>>>> climate that has set in on all sides.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The free exchange of information and ideas, the lifeblood of a
> liberal
> >>>>>> society, is daily becoming more constricted. While we have come to
> >>>>>> expect this on the radical right, censoriousness is also spreading
> more
> >>>>>> widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for
> >>>>>> public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex
> >>>>>> policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. We uphold the value of
> >>>>>> robust and even caustic counter-speech from all quarters. But it is
> now
> >>>>>> all too common to hear calls for swift and severe retribution in
> >>>>>> response to perceived transgressions of speech and thought. More
> >>>>>> troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of panicked
> damage
> >>>>>> control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate punishments
> instead
> >>>>>> of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running controversial
> >>>>>> pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists
> are
> >>>>>> barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated
> for
> >>>>>> quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for
> >>>>>> circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of
> >>>>>> organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy
> mistakes.
> >>>>>> Whatever the arguments around each particular incident, the result
> has
> >>>>>> been to steadily narrow the boundaries of what can be said without
> the
> >>>>>> threat of reprisal. We are already paying the price in greater risk
> >>>>>> aversion among writers, artists, and journalists who fear for their
> >>>>>> livelihoods if they depart from the consensus, or even lack
> sufficient
> >>>>>> zeal in agreement.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This stifling atmosphere will ultimately harm the most vital causes
> of
> >>>>>> our time. The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive
> government
> >>>>>> or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack power and
> >>>>>> makes everyone less capable of democratic participation. The way to
> >>>>>> defeat bad ideas is by exposure, argument, and persuasion, not by
> >>>>> trying
> >>>>>> to silence or wish them away. We refuse any false choice between
> >>>>> justice
> >>>>>> and freedom, which cannot exist without each other. As writers we
> need
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>> culture that leaves us room for experimentation, risk taking, and
> even
> >>>>>> mistakes. We need to preserve the possibility of good-faith
> >>>>> disagreement
> >>>>>> without dire professional consequences. If we won’t defend the very
> >>>>>> thing on which our work depends, we shouldn’t expect the public or
> the
> >>>>>> state to defend it for us. +
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >> --
> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>