A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

[Mark Thibodeau]

Brilliant. Thanks for sharing! Bookmarked for sure.

Jerky

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 4:43 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2020/07/wrongthink.html
>
> It's the Intellectual Dark Singularity! Where on the same strange Tuesday,
> Andrew Sullivan gets the sack from New York Magazine.
>
> On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:40 AM Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Bai Weiss is a human stain, not to mention an intellectual lightweight
>> spewing  cliched inanities, whose own hiring was a bit of performative
>> stunt tokenism meant to prove something (Zeus knows what) to
>> conservatives.
>>
>> Bet the Times has no regrets about that now, eh wot?
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Yer old pal Jerky
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 7:29 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > The Human Stain, allusion intended.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 7:25 AM Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>> > lorentzen at hotmail.de>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Since you mention the NYT ...
>> > >
>> > > + ... But the lessons that ought to have followed the election—lessons
>> > > about the importance of understanding other Americans, the necessity
>> of
>> > > resisting tribalism, and the centrality of the free exchange of ideas
>> to
>> > a
>> > > democratic society—have not been learned. Instead, a new consensus has
>> > > emerged in the press, but perhaps especially at this paper: that truth
>> > > isn’t a process of collective discovery, but an orthodoxy already
>> known
>> > to
>> > > an enlightened few whose job is to inform everyone else.
>> > >
>> > > Twitter is not on the masthead of The New York Times. But Twitter has
>> > > become its ultimate editor. As the ethics and mores of that platform
>> have
>> > > become those of the paper, the paper itself has increasingly become a
>> > kind
>> > > of performance space. Stories are chosen and told in a way to satisfy
>> the
>> > > narrowest of audiences, rather than to allow a curious public to read
>> > about
>> > > the world and then draw their own conclusions. I was always taught
>> that
>> > > journalists were charged with writing the first rough draft of
>> history.
>> > > Now, history itself is one more ephemeral thing molded to fit the
>> needs
>> > of
>> > > a predetermined narrative.
>> > >
>> > > My own forays into Wrongthink have made me the subject of constant
>> > > bullying by colleagues who disagree with my views. They have called
>> me a
>> > > Nazi and a racist; I have learned to brush off comments about how I’m
>> > > “writing about the Jews again.” Several colleagues perceived to be
>> > friendly
>> > > with me were badgered by coworkers. My work and my character are
>> openly
>> > > demeaned on company-wide Slack channels where masthead editors
>> regularly
>> > > weigh in. There, some coworkers insist I need to be rooted out if this
>> > > company is to be a truly “inclusive” one, while others post ax emojis
>> > next
>> > > to my name. Still other New York Times employees publicly smear me as
>> a
>> > > liar and a bigot on Twitter with no fear that harassing me will be met
>> > with
>> > > appropriate action. They never are.
>> > >
>> > > There are terms for all of this: unlawful discrimination, hostile work
>> > > environment, and constructive discharge. I’m no legal expert. But I
>> know
>> > > that this is wrong.
>> > >
>> > > I do not understand how you have allowed this kind of behavior to go
>> on
>> > > inside your company in full view of the paper’s entire staff and the
>> > > public. And I certainly can’t square how you and other Times leaders
>> have
>> > > stood by while simultaneously praising me in private for my courage.
>> > > Showing up for work as a centrist at an American newspaper should not
>> > > require bravery.
>> > >
>> > > Part of me wishes I could say that my experience was unique. But the
>> > truth
>> > > is that intellectual curiosity—let alone risk-taking—is now a
>> liability
>> > at
>> > > The Times. Why edit something challenging to our readers, or write
>> > > something bold only to go through the numbing process of making it
>> > > ideologically kosher, when we can assure ourselves of job security
>> (and
>> > > clicks) by publishing our 4000th op-ed arguing that Donald Trump is a
>> > > unique danger to the country and the world? And so self-censorship has
>> > > become the norm.
>> > >
>> > > What rules that remain at The Times are applied with extreme
>> selectivity.
>> > > If a person’s ideology is in keeping with the new orthodoxy, they and
>> > their
>> > > work remain unscrutinized. Everyone else lives in fear of the digital
>> > > thunderdome. Online venom is excused so long as it is directed at the
>> > > proper targets.
>> > >
>> > > Op-eds that would have easily been published just two years ago would
>> now
>> > > get an editor or a writer in serious trouble, if not fired. If a
>> piece is
>> > > perceived as likely to inspire backlash internally or on social media,
>> > the
>> > > editor or writer avoids pitching it ... +
>> > >
>> > > https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter
>> > >
>> > > Am 09.07.20 um 22:33 schrieb rich:
>> > >
>> > > good explanation for why Pynchon didnt sign. everybody so angry
>> > >
>> > > curious there were no really humorous quarantine stories featured in
>> the
>> > > NYTimes magazine 'fiction issue' this week. so serious our current
>> slate
>> > of
>> > > established writers.
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 7:32 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> <
>> > mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I say everyone should ask to sign it....You in?
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 7:03 PM John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> <
>> > sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > This is a gross generalisation but the old 'we need more robust
>> > > debate!' complaint tends to come from people in positions of power or
>> > > who are used to being heard without question, at about the point when
>> > > their voice is beginning to be questioned or is simply ignored.
>> > > Claiming you're being censored or cancelled or deplatformed is a
>> > > terrific way of shutting down conversations and silencing critics,
>> > > rather than engaging with their criticisms or bolstering your own
>> > > arguments. Rowling is obviously the most current case, with defenders
>> > > using the 'now now, let her speak' defence as if utterances are
>> > > without consequence.
>> > > Of course there are many voices that are seldom heard and are used to
>> > > not being heard, but I doubt they were invited to sign an open letter
>> > > in Harper's.
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:41 AM Laura Kelber <laurakelber at gmail.com> <
>> > laurakelber at gmail.com>
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I loathe a number of the signers but agree with the content. I was
>> glad
>> > >
>> > > to
>> > >
>> > > see Zephyr Teachout's signature. The more progressives who sign on,
>> the
>> > > less reactionary it becomes.
>> > >
>> > > If even signing this modest document carries the threat of
>> > >
>> > > excommunication,
>> > >
>> > > then the contents matter.
>> > >
>> > > The editor states that this will be printed in the October issue of
>> the
>> > > magazine, so the signature list is in flux. I suspect that most
>> > > progressives won't have the guts to sign. The centrists and
>> > >
>> > > reactionaries
>> > >
>> > > on the list are preaching to their own choir and don't have to worry.
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020, 11:03 AM Jonathon Hunt <jhuntstl at gmail.com> <
>> > jhuntstl at gmail.com>
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I don't have a job right now and am exhausted after spending my day
>> > > yesterday getting people out of jail who were violently arrested for
>> > > protesting police violence, but after I rest a bit I may make time to
>> > >
>> > > read
>> > >
>> > > the letter as I am sure the letter signed by David Frum raises some
>> > >
>> > > oh-so
>> > >
>> > > important points about free speech.
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 11:57 AM Gary Webb <gwebb8686 at gmail.com> <
>> > gwebb8686 at gmail.com>
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > ***Paul Beatty lol not the dude from Deliverance
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my iPhone
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:37 PM, Gary Webb <gwebb8686 at gmail.com> <
>> > gwebb8686 at gmail.com>
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Has anyone read Kanye’s interview:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/randalllane/2020/07/08/kanye-west-says-hes-done-with-trump-opens-up-about-white-house-bid-damaging-biden-and-everything-in-between/#488b548047aa
>> > >
>> > > I kind of missed the whole Kanye thing. Some younger friends are
>> > >
>> > > fans,
>> > >
>> > > and I’ve read some very esoteric social media discussions about his
>> > >
>> > > albums.
>> > >
>> > > I probably disagree with about 99 % of what he says, but I admire
>> > >
>> > > his
>> > >
>> > > spirit. The whole interview kind of reads like Ned Beatty’s The
>> > >
>> > > Sellout.
>> > >
>> > > The birthday party lol... but it would be foolish to
>> > >
>> > > underestimate
>> > >
>> > > him,
>> > >
>> > > in 2016 this would be dismissed as laughable nonsense... in 2020 he
>> > >
>> > > gets
>> > >
>> > > an
>> > >
>> > > interview in Forbes... in 2024?
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my iPhone
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> <
>> > mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > It is.
>> > >
>> > > Like all those political purity tests I read about in the "bad'
>> > >
>> > > movements
>> > >
>> > > of history, LOL.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 7:15 AM Mark Thibodeau <
>> > >
>> > > jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I know that one of the signers taking her name off is a trans
>> > >
>> > > advocate,
>> > >
>> > > for whom the presence of JKRowling and Jesse Signal probably
>> > >
>> > > represent
>> > >
>> > > a
>> > >
>> > > bridge too far (causing her to demand that her name be removed
>> > >
>> > > AND
>> > >
>> > > beg
>> > >
>> > > her
>> > >
>> > > Twitter followers to please forgive her for the incalculable
>> > >
>> > > damage
>> > >
>> > > that
>> > >
>> > > affixing her name to such a diabolical document has no doubt
>> > >
>> > > already
>> > >
>> > > wrought upon The CommunityTM.
>> > >
>> > > It's all just so ridiculously lunatic.
>> > >
>> > > Jerky
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020, 7:06 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Agree, Hasty and virtually ad hoc..and FOR intellectuals in
>> > >
>> > > the
>> > >
>> > > PUBLIC
>> > >
>> > > SPHERE--see Habermas---
>> > > and academic sphere mostly. I doubt if he was asked.
>> > >
>> > > What is so unexpectedly infuriating is how contentious this
>> > >
>> > > has
>> > >
>> > > already
>> > >
>> > > become, Matty
>> > > Yglesias has been complained to his mannagement about BY A
>> > >
>> > > COLLEAGUE....??
>> > >
>> > > A couple other "liberals" are now regretting they signed
>> > >
>> > > because of
>> > >
>> > > some
>> > >
>> > > non-liberals (it seems) who signed, which
>> > > is kinda self-refuting, no?
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:37 AM Mark Thibodeau <
>> > >
>> > > jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > i dunno... the list of signatures is actually kind of small,
>> > >
>> > > in my
>> > >
>> > > opinion.
>> > > Small enough that I don't consider the lack of Pynchon's name
>> > >
>> > > (or
>> > >
>> > > Delillo's, or Vollmann's, or Price's, all of whom have
>> > >
>> > > actually
>> > >
>> > > contributed
>> > > pieces to Harper's in recent years) to be particularly
>> > >
>> > > noteworthy.
>> > >
>> > > For what it's worth, I agree with the general sentiment of
>> > >
>> > > the
>> > >
>> > > letter
>> > >
>> > > AND I
>> > > wear antifa t-shirts tees (figuratively... I don't actually
>> > >
>> > > own any
>> > >
>> > > sloganwear),
>> > >
>> > > Cheers!
>> > > yer old pal Jerky
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 6:24 AM Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>> > lorentzen at hotmail.de>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > So many smart people signed this necessary letter, ---
>> > >
>> > > Pynchon
>> > >
>> > > didn't.
>> > >
>> > > Was he just too lazy? Didn't they ask him? Or does he really
>> > >
>> > > wear
>> > >
>> > > 'antifa'-t-shirts?
>> > >
>> > > + Our cultural institutions are facing a moment of trial.
>> > >
>> > > Powerful
>> > >
>> > > protests for racial and social justice are leading to
>> > >
>> > > overdue
>> > >
>> > > demands
>> > >
>> > > for police reform, along with wider calls for greater
>> > >
>> > > equality and
>> > >
>> > > inclusion across our society, not least in higher education,
>> > >
>> > > journalism,
>> > >
>> > > philanthropy, and the arts. But this needed reckoning has
>> > >
>> > > also
>> > >
>> > > intensified a new set of moral attitudes and political
>> > >
>> > > commitments
>> > >
>> > > that
>> > >
>> > > tend to weaken our norms of open debate and toleration of
>> > >
>> > > differences
>> > >
>> > > in
>> > >
>> > > favor of ideological conformity. As we applaud the first
>> > >
>> > > development,
>> > >
>> > > we
>> > >
>> > > also raise our voices against the second. The forces of
>> > >
>> > > illiberalism
>> > >
>> > > are
>> > >
>> > > gaining strength throughout the world and have a powerful
>> > >
>> > > ally in
>> > >
>> > > Donald
>> > >
>> > > Trump, who represents a real threat to democracy. But
>> > >
>> > > resistance
>> > >
>> > > must
>> > >
>> > > not be allowed to harden into its own brand of dogma or
>> > >
>> > > coercion—which
>> > >
>> > > right-wing demagogues are already exploiting. The democratic
>> > >
>> > > inclusion
>> > >
>> > > we want can be achieved only if we speak out against the
>> > >
>> > > intolerant
>> > >
>> > > climate that has set in on all sides.
>> > >
>> > > The free exchange of information and ideas, the lifeblood
>> > >
>> > > of a
>> > >
>> > > liberal
>> > >
>> > > society, is daily becoming more constricted. While we have
>> > >
>> > > come to
>> > >
>> > > expect this on the radical right, censoriousness is also
>> > >
>> > > spreading
>> > >
>> > > more
>> > >
>> > > widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a
>> > >
>> > > vogue
>> > >
>> > > for
>> > >
>> > > public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve
>> > >
>> > > complex
>> > >
>> > > policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. We uphold the
>> > >
>> > > value
>> > >
>> > > of
>> > >
>> > > robust and even caustic counter-speech from all quarters.
>> > >
>> > > But
>> > >
>> > > it
>> > >
>> > > is
>> > >
>> > > now
>> > >
>> > > all too common to hear calls for swift and severe
>> > >
>> > > retribution
>> > >
>> > > in
>> > >
>> > > response to perceived transgressions of speech and thought.
>> > >
>> > > More
>> > >
>> > > troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of
>> > >
>> > > panicked
>> > >
>> > > damage
>> > >
>> > > control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate
>> > >
>> > > punishments
>> > >
>> > > instead
>> > >
>> > > of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running
>> > >
>> > > controversial
>> > >
>> > > pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity;
>> > >
>> > > journalists
>> > >
>> > > are
>> > >
>> > > barred from writing on certain topics; professors are
>> > >
>> > > investigated
>> > >
>> > > for
>> > >
>> > > quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired
>> > >
>> > > for
>> > >
>> > > circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of
>> > > organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy
>> > >
>> > > mistakes.
>> > >
>> > > Whatever the arguments around each particular incident, the
>> > >
>> > > result
>> > >
>> > > has
>> > >
>> > > been to steadily narrow the boundaries of what can be said
>> > >
>> > > without
>> > >
>> > > the
>> > >
>> > > threat of reprisal. We are already paying the price in
>> > >
>> > > greater
>> > >
>> > > risk
>> > >
>> > > aversion among writers, artists, and journalists who fear
>> > >
>> > > for
>> > >
>> > > their
>> > >
>> > > livelihoods if they depart from the consensus, or even lack
>> > >
>> > > sufficient
>> > >
>> > > zeal in agreement.
>> > >
>> > > This stifling atmosphere will ultimately harm the most vital
>> > >
>> > > causes
>> > >
>> > > of
>> > >
>> > > our time. The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive
>> > >
>> > > government
>> > >
>> > > or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack
>> > >
>> > > power
>> > >
>> > > and
>> > >
>> > > makes everyone less capable of democratic participation. The
>> > >
>> > > way
>> > >
>> > > to
>> > >
>> > > defeat bad ideas is by exposure, argument, and persuasion,
>> > >
>> > > not by
>> > >
>> > > trying
>> > >
>> > > to silence or wish them away. We refuse any false choice
>> > >
>> > > between
>> > >
>> > > justice
>> > >
>> > > and freedom, which cannot exist without each other. As
>> > >
>> > > writers we
>> > >
>> > > need
>> > >
>> > > a
>> > >
>> > > culture that leaves us room for experimentation, risk
>> > >
>> > > taking,
>> > >
>> > > and
>> > >
>> > > even
>> > >
>> > > mistakes. We need to preserve the possibility of good-faith
>> > >
>> > > disagreement
>> > >
>> > > without dire professional consequences. If we won’t defend
>> > >
>> > > the
>> > >
>> > > very
>> > >
>> > > thing on which our work depends, we shouldn’t expect the
>> > >
>> > > public or
>> > >
>> > > the
>> > >
>> > > state to defend it for us. +
>> > >
>> > > https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > --
>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> >
>> --
>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>
>