BEg2 Chap 8: Adam Bombs! Eve of Destruction

[Mark Kohut]

BEST RIPOSTE EVER on this list......

Great, Jerky, great.

On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:11 PM Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Forget it, Quaill. It's Chinatown.
>
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:01 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
> > But I thought all humans were evil sinners  and the universe would be
> > better off without us. So you think Thibodeau got that wrong? I’m getting
> > confused here. I don’t even know what we’re weighing against what. And
> who
> > is going to hold the scale? There’s a lot of biomass involved.  Here I am
> > trying to renounce my foolish and inauthentic America Last position for a
> > more patriotic and semi- sincere, though I sometimes can’t tell, America
> > First stance and I am getting corrective remonstrance from both ends.
> Look,
> > I only have one tongue and 2 cheeks; I’ m doing the best I can.
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Dec 13, 2021, at 3:23 PM, Allen Ruch <quail at shipwrecklibrary.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The part of me that's actually a chemist and former astronomy teacher
> > has to weigh in here:
> > >
> > > "The planet and green stuff and animals and shit" is the last thing I’d
> > worry about regarding nuclear bombs. Nature is SO MUCH MORE catastrophic
> > than humans. Think about the asteroid that whacked the dinosaurs. Or long
> > before that, the "Great Dying," in which rising CO2 levels possibly
> caused
> > by volcanic eruptions caused mass extinctions the likes of which stagger
> > the imagination. And there were many other "smaller" extinction events.
> The
> > universe can behave like a hostile, indifferent place, and old Mother
> > Nature has gobbled down her children wholesale on countless occasions.
> > Hell, the very oxygen we breathe now was DEADLY POISON to much early life
> > on earth: wiped 'em out of existence without blinking an eye. (Or a pair
> of
> > Os.) And I have some news for you re: 5 billion years from now...
> > >
> > > So yeah, it's the destruction of humans I worry about more. Mother
> > Nature will always cook up more animals and green stuff, but I don't want
> > to be replaced by crab people. (And this isn't to argue with you, Joe—I
> > know you also care about human life! I'm just putting it into
> perspective.)
> > >
> > > —Quail
> > >
> > > PS: On a related note—indifferent, hostile universe and all—thank you
> > for the Lovecraft/Pynchon paper!
> > >
> > > On 12/13/21, 2:30 PM, "Pynchon-l on behalf of Joseph Tracy" <
> > pynchon-l-bounces at waste.org on behalf of brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >    Some people , especially those america lasters are probably just not
> > getting those subtle dstinctions of anglo colonialism.
> > >      The BOMB. Only destructive. Not really evil at all. Sheeesh why
> > didn’t I think of that. Just a planet with green stuff and animals and
> > shit. Imean I’mgoing to die, … maybe, so why shouldn’t billions of years
> of
> > evolution be burnt to a crisp to keep America First. Damn fuckin
> straight.
> > Don’t you love straw men? I do. Just a match, a quick breath  and
> whooosh.
> > >
> > >> On Dec 13, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Jeez-whiz, and it's not just China!
> > >>
> > >> I'd give this list's cohort of America Lasters some homework re: the
> > >> Empire *Upon
> > >> Which the Sun Never Set (among others) throughout the *19th century
> and
> > >> beyond, out both ends, from slave ship to cotton field to diamond mine
> > to
> > >> the killing fields of drug war and strategic famine and applied racial
> > >> "science" to etc, etc, etc, before they spend another moment in that
> > state
> > >> of blessed easy leftish innocence that sees the USA as the be all and
> > end
> > >> all of EVILE in world history...
> > >>
> > >> With the caveat that they DID (in many ways) produce The BOMB, which
> is
> > the
> > >> point upon which our species' ending may ultimately pivot, some day
> > soon.
> > >> But I would argue that, technically, while destructive, that's not
> > really
> > >> "EVILE" per se... unless you see Imperial Japan and Fascist Germany as
> > the
> > >> Good Guys.
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 9:29 AM Allen Ruch <
> quail at shipwrecklibrary.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Joseph,
> > >>>
> > >>> Heh—this ain't my first rodeo, pardner! I wasn't taught debate by Mr.
> > >>> Farkas just to fall for the ol' Motte-and-Baily trick! I tilted a
> > humorous
> > >>> joust towards your bailey: "The Bill or Rights was suspended," not
> some
> > >>> indefensible motte: "Extradition and torture don't matter." Of
> course I
> > >>> believe that Western rights can be, and have been, infringed,
> > subverted,
> > >>> and perverted, and of course I believe torture matters. I was teasing
> > you
> > >>> about your hyperbole, the same I would expect someone to do if I said
> > >>> something like "Rush is the greatest band ever." Just with less, you
> > know,
> > >>> moral high ground? And also, if you genuinely believe that China
> > needed the
> > >>> United States to develop a surveillance state dedicated to
> controlling
> > its
> > >>> citizens, I urge you to read about Imperial China long before the
> > Canton
> > >>> system. It's pretty grim stuff. (The first Opium War is one of
> favorite
> > >>> historical subjects. It's like: "Oh, oh, oh, you are *all* so
> > terrible!")
> > >>>
> > >>> But on to the heart of your post—thank you for clarifying your
> ideas. I
> > >>> understand you much better now, and I really appreciate your "layers"
> > >>> analogy. It offers a nice vocabulary to discuss Pynchon. For
> instance,
> > I
> > >>> agree with you that the third, mythic later is detuned in "Bleeding
> > Edge"
> > >>> compared to many of his other books. And there's some weird interplay
> > >>> between the second and third layers: the Naser? I mean....come on?
> > Which
> > >>> creates a strange tension in the novel for me.
> > >>>
> > >>> For instance: I accept mechanical ducks in "Mason & Dixon," and
> > Godzilla
> > >>> in "Vineland." I can even accept ghosts in "Bleeding Edge." But stiff
> > like
> > >>> the Naser raises my eyebrows: if this is *real,* if the Naser and
> > people
> > >>> fleeing from it are meant to be taken literally in the world of the
> > book,
> > >>> how seriously are we meant to take the characters? It feels different
> > than,
> > >>> say, "Against the Day," which clearly operates in a magical space. Or
> > the
> > >>> time travel in "Bleeding Edge"—but I'm getting ahead of myself. I'll
> > wait
> > >>> until those chapters to raise those questions. Some good stuff coming
> > down
> > >>> the road in the novel, once you clear all these opening chapters.
> > (Which I
> > >>> still enjoy.)
> > >>>
> > >>> And I just wanted to pull this quote out, because I really like it:
> > >>> "Whether Pynchon believes M&D’s line was really a colonial violation
> of
> > >>> telluric patterns or just a means of land theft, we know he has M&D
> > wrestle
> > >>> with the ethical dimensions of what they are doing and uses
> > supernatural
> > >>> stories to amplify such issues." <--yes! Well said.
> > >>>
> > >>> Anyway, thanks for taking the time to clarify. And I would be
> > interested
> > >>> in reading your essay, if you send it along!
> > >>>
> > >>> —Quail
> > >>>
> > >>> On 12/11/21, 10:07 PM, "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>   easier questions first- Pynchon readers seem less enthralled with
> BE
> > >>> as a whole, and I think this is part of why. We like the weirdness
> and
> > the
> > >>> sublime quality of hanging out for a few days or weeks with Ball
> > lightning,
> > >>> talking across that usually unbridgeable gap.  I think the
> > confrontation
> > >>> with the abyss combined with 9-11 and ithe loss of privacy is also
> > >>> uncomfortably close to home. Throw in the weird scene and video  with
> > the
> > >>> shoulder fired missile, and who wants to think about it all. Look
> what
> > it
> > >>> stirred up here.
> > >>>   Abyss- all of the above with the full impact of all that we do not
> > >>> know.
> > >>>   I don't think you could take things any more seriously than GR.
> > >>>   China's system was born here, but they have caught up.
> > >>>   The redcoats have not come to my house directly but they are
> turning
> > >>> over Julian for more torture and that matters.
> > >>>
> > >>>   Less supernatural as in missing the third layer that is in most of
> > his
> > >>> novels. As you know, because the story, I’m fairly certain, came from
> > your
> > >>> web page, Pynchon once compared his writing to one of those medical
> > texts
> > >>> with overlappable transparent layers.  As a stained glass
> > conservationist I
> > >>> sometimes have worked with Tiffany and Lafarge Windows with multiple
> > layers
> > >>> and the whole idea has affected my own art and the way I look at TP
> and
> > >>> other fiction. I see 3 fundamental layers( I have an essay somewhere
> > if you
> > >>> are interested)with the more direct comments of the author himself
> > being a
> > >>> kind of 4th layer and the readers a 5th in the sense that like all
> > writers
> > >>> he wants to connect. The base , or at least fundamental to the 3
> > layers is
> > >>> history itself and Pynchon tries hard to make this accurate and full
> of
> > >>> timely details. My presumption here is not that history can be
> > accurately
> > >>> told but that it actually happened and is a proper setting for
> writing
> > >>> about the  human experience and maybe some other shit too. The second
> > layer
> > >>> I call the plausible fictive, but is also called realism naturalism
> or
> > just
> > >>> fiction. This is the primary characters and their imagined lives
> along
> > with
> > >>> fictional towns , bars, mayonnaise attacks etc..  Still pretty normal
> > >>> stuff. The third layer is the supernatural, which almost always has a
> > >>> mythic dimension. This is why I referred to Pugnax, the Chums,
> > Thanatoids,
> > >>> etc. These could be dismissed as silly but fun storytelling devices
> > but I
> > >>> think there is more to it. It adds a layer that has always been part
> of
> > >>> human consciousness and treats it as something perfectly normal with
> > real
> > >>> effects on other layers. Whether Pynchon believes M&D’s line was
> > really a
> > >>> colonial violation of telluric patterns or just a means of land
> theft,
> > we
> > >>> know he has M&D wrestle with the ethical dimensions of what they are
> > doing
> > >>> and uses supernatural stories to amplify such issues.
> > >>>      That was probably too big of an answer but this third
> supernatural
> > >>> layer is seriously reduced in BE and a more psychological approach
> > takes a
> > >>> central role. I think it makes the writing  just a bit less lively,
> > less
> > >>> fun,  and less multi-dimensional but Pynchon's other emphasis is on
> the
> > >>> role of computer tech and the web and I am suggesting that maybe this
> > >>> forfeiting of the supernatural and mythic weird comes from a sense
> that
> > >>> screens  is where we have turned our attention and that in doing so
> > we may
> > >>> well have forfeited a vital dimension.  Not only that but we have
> > forfeited
> > >>> it to a logic system that  easily serves  as system controls for a
> > ruling
> > >>> class that may be socipathic at a fundamental level, and also  a
> logic
> > >>> sytem that is not part of biological complexity, moral compassion, or
> > real
> > >>> joy in living . I personally doubt that biology or physics  or
> > >>> consciousness is built up from binary logic. I like computers as a
> very
> > >>> powerful  tool, but like you and  Cassidy certain things or spaces or
> > >>> energy systems, movies, etc. feel as you said ’colonized’ and while I
> > try
> > >>> to face my own shadow some things I just walk away from or dig into
> my
> > >>> internal love mantras and wait for some light.  Is there evil? Even
> > with my
> > >>> inclination toward Taoism I can’t dismiss it as easily as I used to.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Dec 11, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Allen Ruch <quail at shipwrecklibrary.com
> >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The suspension of the Bill of Rights was the worst—I was shocked to
> > >>> find I had to quarter Redcoats in my apartment! They really drank me
> > out of
> > >>> house and home. Couldn't make a decent pot ocoffee to save their
> lives.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> But kidding aside, while your post contains all the eloquence I've
> > >>> come to enjoy from your writing -- I'm a sucker for "chthonic" -- I'm
> > not
> > >>> sure I'm following a few of your points, which is likely my fault.
> > Just to
> > >>> clarify: You feel the book is less supernatural because Pynchon is
> > taking
> > >>> things more seriously, because he's dealing with recent events? Or
> > because
> > >>> he feels modern people, or perhaps his characters, have lost touch
> > with the
> > >>> mythic? And when you say the Deep Web (via DeepArcher) draws people
> > "toward
> > >>> the abyss that is an inevitable part of the subconscious," do you
> mean
> > >>> loneliness? The self? Depression? Death? All of the above?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think I get what you are saying—perhaps in a Gurdjieff/Watts kind
> > >>> of way—but here's something about the Deep Web in Bleeding Edge that
> > still
> > >>> feels more sinister to me than the Dark Night of the Soul, perhaps
> > >>> more—colonized? Or maybe this is just one of the Pynchon things I'll
> > never
> > >>> really "get." (Yes, I admit, there are parts of "Against the Day"
> that
> > >>> still leaving me scratching my head.)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And finally, what do you mean by "What readers do with that is
> > >>> interesting. Pynchon fans seem distinctly less enthralled." Less
> > enthralled
> > >>> with exploring darkness, or just less enthralled with BE as a whole?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Anyway, I certainly agree with you that our "planet wars" have
> > >>> claimed enough victims, and we should treasure human contact. Well
> > said.
> > >>> (Though I reckon that China may be offended by your claiming that the
> > US
> > >>> has the "largest civilian surveillance system ever imagined." You
> > should
> > >>> really give them more credit, they're trying so hard!)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> —Quail
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 12/11/21, 6:02 PM, "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>  But I do have that question for everyone: how literal do you take
> > >>> Bleeding Edge?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>  Good question, especially because, as you point out, there is
> > >>> distinctly less intrusion of the supernatural or mythic weird than in
> > any
> > >>> other Pynchon Novel: no talking ball lightning, no chasing harmonicas
> > into
> > >>> the underworld, no Thanatoids, lovestruck mecahincal ducks, Pugnax,
> > Vheissu
> > >>> etc.
> > >>>>  I mean there is the cosmic bike messenger and in this very
> > >>> chapter a psychic bladder function, but these are, let’s face it,
> just
> > not
> > >>> the same. Later there are ghosts but even those can be interpreted as
> > >>> psychological illusions or alternately insights.  It is as though the
> > >>> dreaded nuclear armed V2 had finally hit and the worst it could do
> was
> > >>> bring down towers and kill a few thousand more victims of the planet
> > wars.
> > >>> Which by the time BE was being written had produced more planet wars
> > and a
> > >>> hundred fold increase in innocent victims. Well innocent in that most
> > >>> people don’t actively drop bombs on other people and wouldn’t even
> > donate
> > >>> to the bombers if the national bomb campaigns relied on volunteer
> > >>> donations.
> > >>>>     The human suffering is all too real too, and other realities
> > >>> have come with it: the sudden turn to patriot act paranoia, the drone
> > wars,
> > >>> the suspension of the Bill of Rights and the institution of the
> largest
> > >>> civilian surveillance system ever imagined.
> > >>>>    Maybe TP  has brought his readers out of a world on which the
> > >>> people interact powerfully with the mythic because that is his sense
> of
> > >>> what is happening. I have the feeling he is not that thrilled with a
> > world
> > >>> so severed, both from the mystical and from the multicultural,
> > multivalent
> > >>> social hodgepodge that does not so easily lend itself to the
> > manipulations
> > >>> of binary code and binary politics. Maxine is the most interactive
> > human in
> > >>> P’s writings and what she is is the normal social experience of a
> great
> > >>> deal of human history. She gives us the big picture view that
> > cyberspace
> > >>> promises but can’t deliver.  Everyone is different, looking for
> > meaning,
> > >>> respect, everyone is struggling with the effects of social isolation
> > and
> > >>> lack of power to stop a growing plutocracy, marital and family
> > breakups,
> > >>> predators, bad habits.
> > >>>>     The deep web functions not so much like a balloon ride into
> > >>> new dimensions of understanding, or even a cthonic confrontation with
> > the
> > >>> deep forces of history and myth like Slothrop’s toilet adventure. It
> > draws
> > >>> people toward the abyss that is an inevitable part of the
> > subconscious. It
> > >>> is lonely and we all must enter eventually.  What readers do with
> that
> > is
> > >>> interesting. Pynchon fans seem distinctly less enthralled. I have
> mixed
> > >>> feelings. I been there plenty and the main result is I want to
> treasure
> > >>> every human contact.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Dec 11, 2021, at 4:04 PM, Allen Ruch <
> quail at shipwrecklibrary.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I liked Myst. I am a hardcore video game player, and I still love
> > >>> open worlds the best. Myst was a forerunner to so many great things,
> > even
> > >>> stuff like GTA and Skyrim. Great game.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Which brings me to Cassidy. I keep re-reading that section, and
> > >>> even though I read "Bleeding Edge" when it first came out, maybe I
> just
> > >>> don't remember—what is there about the abyss in Deep Archer? It's
> often
> > >>> spoken of in mystical terms. I think Cassidy gives the first
> > impression of
> > >>> that, beyond Maxine's initial "gee wow," that is. Cassidy remarks:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> “Hard to explain. It was all just coming from somewhere, for about
> > >>> a day and a half I felt I was duked in on forces outside my normal
> > >>> perimeter, you know? Not scared, just wanted to get it over with,
> > wrote the
> > >>> file, did the Java, didn’t look at it again. Next thing I remember is
> > one
> > >>> of them saying holy shit it’s the edge of the world”
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Pynchon loves supernatural spaces, and I think he's strongly
> > >>> suggesting that the Deep Web—or video games, or Myst, etc.—has the
> > capacity
> > >>> to be an Other World. And not just Gibsonian cyberspace—or maybe it's
> > just
> > >>> that after all?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Maybe because weird fiction/horror is my favorite genre, I'm
> > >>> fascinated with the intrusions of the supernatural—or if not the
> > >>> supernatural, then the sublime?—in "Bleeding Edge." I mean, it's one
> > thing
> > >>> in M&D, AtD, etc., but this seems to be Pynchon's most "realistic,"
> or
> > >>> perhaps "historical," book. Sure, there are some things that suggest
> an
> > >>> alternate, wackier universe—the Naser, proösmia, Maxine being ok with
> > being
> > >>> a stripper—but then again, there's something even weirder going on,
> > right?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Anyway, I won’t go into any future events just yet, I'll wait until
> > >>> we get there. But it's something to keep an eye on as the book
> > develops.
> > >>> But I do have that question for everyone: how literal do you take
> > Bleeding
> > >>> Edge?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> —Quail
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> PS: Sorry I know this post is all jumbled with ideas and not
> > >>> lucidly written, but I'm on my third Abelour.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > >>>
> > >> --
> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >    --
> > >    Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > >
> > > --
> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>