Late capitalism a quote

[Mark Kohut]

Also,-- JT: "Do people have a right to self defense or violent revolution
against an oppressive government? US history started with that
premise,"----I would say
those are two different premises and that the differences matter A LOT....
"a right to self-defense is one of the oldest international laws, maybe as
far back as Grotius
or surely Westphalia (I'm not looking this up)...."........starting a
revolution or war, say the Civil with Fort Sumpter, is an international
crime...(treason in the latter example).
Please read the known facts of the beginning of the American
Revolution--there is a whole book on the day itself, For the Day, so to
speak.......and learn this: England was squeezing,
and not supplying Massachuseetts with promised goods for months, because of
the tea party---contracted deals, I believe. At the recent First
Continental Congress John Adams had
gotten a commitment from the other colonies to come to Mass's aid if
attacked. THEY AGREED BUT WITH A STRONG STATEMENT THAT ENGLAND HAD TO FIRE
FIRST, START
THE WAR (They did not quite trust Adams to not instigate) ......a Paul
Revere friend and Continental Congress supporter, and effectively a spy
with impeccable sources inside the British
military learned that the British were going to attack, Concord the
target.........Hence Revere's famous "one [lantern] if by land, two
{lanterns] if by sea" and he set out.........but he and others met
British troops on the road.....what to do...one escaped but Revere got
taken (as a guilty radical) and told them all he had learned from the
spy......Now troops on the ground knew too........
and........memory misses lots of connections here BUT.......Some
British troops, eager and impatient for war, then did shoot----not
controllable by their commanders, not (surely) even ordered by then
when they did.......Colonists had been getting it together for the war,
heading to Concord......so the volleying started the war....the
self-defensive war that has been known in history as The American
Revolution....(would not the winners label it a Revolution?.....anyway,
they did, making later Americans think that we ...began the revolution with
our violence.....(by the way, in the story of
Paul Revere on the road, there is an account of two dark riders on
horseback, unexplained, and I think of those black riders in Pynchon (and
Dylan)

On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 6:27 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> On the other hand, by the time we get to the growing remnants of the
> Traverse clan in Humboldt County (Vineland) at the final picnic scene the
> unions are still alive and supporting each other. And in ATD, Kit and
> Lake's path were a lot lonelier than Reef or Frank’s. And one can only be
> so surprised that union members did not want to identify with someone who
> had just been murdered by company thugs.
>    The primary and most effective tactic of the unions was the non-violent
> withholding of labor to achieve bargaining status. This cost them many
> lives and made things better for future workers. Do people have a right to
> self defense or violent revolution against an oppressive government? US
> history started twith that premise,  but violence has many downsides as a
> means to justice, quickly becomes a bad habit. Pynchon seems to be able to
> offer a nuanced  picture of these struggles but not much sympathy for the
> violence of plutocrats or state aggression which were far out of proportion
> to the relatively rare instances of anarchist violence.
>
> > On Dec 24, 2021, at 9:46 AM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I still find it interesting no one from the union shows up to Webb's
> funeral. as Reef says 'fuck'em'. I like when Pynchon throws in those little
> nuances
> >
> > rich
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 9:21 AM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> <mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > I think Rich’s take on ease and pragmatics proves true as presented by
> Pynchon when you examine the case of Webb Traverse in ATD.  Webb starts out
> a truly likable guy, but still die-hard anti-owner/pro-labor,
> criminal-activist who parts ways with his youngest son over a dispute about
> principles.  But over the course of the book, things change…  including
> Webb.  I’ll get back to you all about the nature of that change in ATD, but
> it shouldn’t be surprising to anyone that Pynchon doesn’t see these things
> in B&W.
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 8:48 AM rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com <mailto:
> richard.romeo at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > you all blame capitalism like you blame religion, state, technology or
> the
> > matrix. easy to offload all that angst onto a concept. maybe it makes you
> > feel better but nothing changes, does it? most of us dont want radical
> > change. the simple matter is whatever we live in provides to most. that
> may
> > be hard to stomach. but it's true. prophets are the biggest hypocrites
> >
> > rich
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:04 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:
> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> >
> > > This topic came up earlier and I just found this quote in conversation
> > > about Igor paying Maxine for warning about Madoff pyramid scheme.
> Madoff
> > > had a Pynchonian name without even trying. One of Madoff's kids was at
> a
> > > school where I teach an evening  art class . Very hard on him.
> > >
> > > March
> > > “No, I meant late capitalism is a pyramid racket on a global scale, the
> > > kind of pyramid you do human sacrifices up on top of, meantime getting
> the
> > > suckers to believe it’s all gonna go on forever.”
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>