Re: My Reddit comments on Webb’s funeral

[Mark Kohut]

David,

A terrif post, a fine mini-essay of close reading of a part of AtD. ..I
have a question or two and maybe an observation but I have to read THIS
again and check out
AtD again unlike my hip-shooting a bit ago. (I can shoot from the hip OK, a
little less well when riding and very spotty when shooting under the horse
while leaning over
at a galloping paste without taking the time to reread the right sections.)

I might not have the time either.

Mark

On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 7:39 AM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 2:07 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
> >
> There is a huge leap from these union leaders in this instance treated this
> > union person badly to all unions forgot who they worked for.
>
>
> Right.  Pynchon just happened to write about this random only-one-person in
> this only-one-instance because it’s not like something you should make it
> court case over it.  I mean, Jeeze!  Get over it!
>
> There is more to union and union busting activity in ATD than this scene.
> > Pynchonis not a hagiographer of any movement, organization, nation or
> much
> > of anything. People in Thomas Pynchon books tend to show their entire
> > character and behavior  including flaws.
>
>
> Right!  And Unions are just PEOPLE!  Right?  I mean,  like,   EVERYBODY
> makes mistakes!   Whataya gunna do about it!
>
> Unions and revolutionaries in ATD are acting in human response to violent
> > authoritarianism. The plutes the politicians, the media the mercenaries
> > and the banks are organized to get what they can, and the unions,
> > anarchists,  some individualists, and others form a resistance to those
> > authoritarions that directly limit tthe dignity and value of their lives.
>
>
> IMO
>
> Oh!  THIS is what we’ve all been waiting for!
>
> Trying to argue that Pynchon is anti-union is a lonely position in the body
> > of academic response to P’s writing, and picking out this example as
> proof
> > is
>
> missing the forest for a shrub.
>
>
>
> > On Dec 28, 2021, at 10:29 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Mmhm. Nice, David. Very nice. Fine job of catching the nuances of the
> > individualist as a union man. Webb’s complexity as a character and the
> > historical scenes that aligned him with the working stiffs of the
> American
> > west during the bad old days is a particularly captivating ‘chapter’ in
> the
> > larger narrative. What happened to the unions, I hear P asking
> > rhetorically, they forgot who they worked for responds the family left
> > behind to wander adrift through the fragments of the world. Commitment
> is a
> > cesspool in the workers’ world, and labor is the turdpile of commerce.
> > Flush after scented flush. The union, to pull a little Norris into the
> mix,
> > is an arm of the octopus. Given enough time and space I could run out
> > metaphors to mix into the mess.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I’ve cleaned it up a bit, but my conclusion is the same:  Pynchon’s
> > >> portrayal of Unions in ATD is not even close to an endorsement.  Also,
> > the
> > >> funny thing is that (with these sections being discussed in this and
> > last
> > >> weeks’ reading schedule) no moderator even commented on Webb’s being
> > >> shuffled away by the Union when he started showing neediness, or the
> > Union
> > >> not even sending flowers to his funeral.  I think that says something
> > about
> > >> modern-day perceptions of the usefulness of unions.
> > >> —————————-
> > >>
> > >> Lately there’s been some “side” attention being paid to ATD over at
> the
> > >> P-List as they pursue their group read of Bleeding Edge. As they try
> to
> > >> understand Late Capitalism in BE, speculations are being made about
> why
> > >> nobody from the Union attended Webb’s funeral, and somebody remembered
> > >> Mayva and Reef’s exchange:
> > >>
> > >> p.215 They stood huddled together in Lone Tree Cemetery, the miners’
> > >> graveyard at the end of town, Mayva, Lake, Frank, and Reed, beneath
> the
> > >> great peaks and behind them the long, descending trace of Bridal Veil
> > Falls
> > >> whispering raggedly into the cold sunlight. Webb’s life and work had
> > come
> > >> to this.
> > >>
> > >> She [Mayva] was quiet [...] “Thought the Union would’ve sent flowers
> at
> > >> least.”
> > >>
> > >> “Not them.” It is just the meanest kind of disrespect, Reef thought,
> and
> > >> fuck all these people.
> > >>
> > >> That seems like a pretty harsh portrayal by Pynchon of the Union. Webb
> > >> literally gave his whole heart and soul to the Union. And for his love
> > of
> > >> the Union, he was brutally, slowly, and sadistictly tortured, and
> > finally,
> > >> unmercifully allowed to die, his body dumped and displayed at for
> > ridicule
> > >> in an earthly Hell. And, then, at his funeral in the miners’ cemetery,
> > he
> > >> is show “the meanest kind of disrespect” by the Union.
> > >>
> > >> So, “over there” at the BE group they are asking “Why?” Had Webb’s
> > >> unsolicited terrorism over the years soured the Union on him (now that
> > they
> > >> were “established?”) Maybe everyone was afraid to show up, to be put
> on
> > >> “their” list of funeral attendees? But the text doesn’t hint at any of
> > >> those reasons. We’re never actually told if the Union knew Webb was
> that
> > >> secret bomber, or if any Union had ever (in either real or fictional
> > life)
> > >> publicly opposed bombings supporting the Union. But that seems like
> > >> grasping at straws.
> > >>
> > >> Backing up a bit with Webb’s story, we learn that Mayva had recently
> > left
> > >> Webb, hoping to watch over Lake, who seemed to be personally
> > floundering.
> > >> After his death the two discuss Webb. Mayva regrets not having gone
> > back to
> > >> Webb, the three of them leaving together for “some place those people
> > don’t
> > >> go, don’t even know about, down out of these god-damned mountains,
> could
> > >> have found us a patch of land —.”  But Lake reminds her, “We were
> never
> > >> that important to him, Mamma. He had his almighty damn Union, that’s
> > what
> > >> he loved. If he loved anything.”
> > >>
> > >> And immediately the narrator tells us:
> > >>
> > >> P.192. “IF IT WAS LOVE, it was less than two-way. With no more
> > respectable
> > >> family-man dodge to hide behind, Webb sought the embrace of Local 63,
> > >> which, alarmed at the vehemence of his need, decided there ought to be
> > some
> > >> distance between him and the Union, and suggested he shift over into
> the
> > >> Uncompahgre for a while, to the Torpedo workings."
> > >>
> > >> Again, the Union is shown as completely uncaring about Webb, finding
> his
> > >> neediness “alarming,” and shuffling him away, out of sight. But,
> > >> importantly, Webb admits here that he’d been hiding behind all that
> time
> > >> behind a “respectable family-man dodge,” now gone away with Mayva and
> > Lake.
> > >> But who was he hiding FROM behind that dodge?
> > >>
> > >> Well, Webb tells us what IS HIS TRUE LOVE with this confession: Now
> that
> > >> Webb had lost the last two of “his own family, the ones [the women]
> that
> > >> ought to’ve mattered most,” it now seemed “as if with the boys all out
> > >> there in the wind his place was now [now, having been left alone
> without
> > >> the women] out there in the wind too.” And he figures that his
> “chances
> > of
> > >> running into each other [with the boys] again were better out there
> > than in
> > >> some domestic interior” [as he’d been all those years with Mayva].
> > >>
> > >> In this context, his having played the “respectable family-man dodge
> to
> > >> hide behind” was him *dodging from himself*, not the Company. And thus
> > Webb
> > >> admits that his “real love” WAS the Union, and it WAS being a free and
> > wild
> > >> man “out there in the wind” like his sons. One could ask which of
> *these
> > >> two* were his real love, his being out there free in the wind, or his
> > love
> > >> of the ideals of Union brotherhood, and clearly the answer would be
> the
> > >> former: his freedom. But if the Union was also a dodge, it at least
> > >> represented his attempt to maintain *some* personal agency and
> > self-respect
> > >> while living in this capitalist world.
> > >>
> > >> But then we see “Webb’s life and work had come to this.” This is
> truly a
> > >> sad end. And it’s FAR from a ringing endorsement of Unions as the
> > solution
> > >> to a person’s delemna in these Late Capital Days.
> > >>
> > >> David Morris
> > >> --
> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > > --
> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>