Re: My Reddit comments on Webb’s funeral

Wed Dec 29 23:07:20 UTC 2021

"Pynchon purposely writes in multi-disjointed fashion, but if you really
track it, parse it, it will eventually make sense."----parsing all of it
keeps me hooked too....
It is the way........"why should reading be easy" as TRP wrote
somewhere and, yes, when you found that connection you spoke of,  You had
me convinced....

On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 4:37 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Mark.
>
> Breaking through the long and somewhat convoluted paragraph about Webb’s
> dodge was the key to understanding his heart, but not really, because his
> actions all along had always displayed it (as Lake said). There’s another
> short bit earlier in the book that also hints at Webb’s conflicted heart.
>
> Quite a while ago an old P-Lister told me that he found that parsing
> Pynchon wasn’t useful, and I strongly disagreed with that, and still do.
> Pynchon purposely writes in multi-disjointed fashion, but if you really
> track it, parse it, it will eventually make sense.  He makes that kind of
> puzzle with his words.
>
> David
>
> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 2:57 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> A terrif post, a fine mini-essay of close reading of a part of AtD. ..I
>> have a question or two and maybe an observation but I have to read THIS
>> again and check out
>> AtD again unlike my hip-shooting a bit ago. (I can shoot from the hip OK,
>> a little less well when riding and very spotty when shooting under the
>> horse while leaning over
>> at a galloping paste without taking the time to reread the right
>> sections.)
>>
>> I might not have the time either.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 7:39 AM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 2:07 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> There is a huge leap from these union leaders in this instance treated
>>> this
>>> > union person badly to all unions forgot who they worked for.
>>>
>>>
>>> Right.  Pynchon just happened to write about this random only-one-person
>>> in
>>> this only-one-instance because it’s not like something you should make it
>>> court case over it.  I mean, Jeeze!  Get over it!
>>>
>>> There is more to union and union busting activity in ATD than this scene.
>>> > Pynchonis not a hagiographer of any movement, organization, nation or
>>> much
>>> > of anything. People in Thomas Pynchon books tend to show their entire
>>> > character and behavior  including flaws.
>>>
>>>
>>> Right!  And Unions are just PEOPLE!  Right?  I mean,  like,   EVERYBODY
>>> makes mistakes!   Whataya gunna do about it!
>>>
>>> Unions and revolutionaries in ATD are acting in human response to violent
>>> > authoritarianism. The plutes the politicians, the media the mercenaries
>>> > and the banks are organized to get what they can, and the unions,
>>> > anarchists,  some individualists, and others form a resistance to those
>>> > authoritarions that directly limit tthe dignity and value of their
>>> lives.
>>>
>>>
>>> IMO
>>>
>>> Oh!  THIS is what we’ve all been waiting for!
>>>
>>> Trying to argue that Pynchon is anti-union is a lonely position in the
>>> body
>>> > of academic response to P’s writing, and picking out this example as
>>> proof
>>> > is
>>>
>>> missing the forest for a shrub.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Dec 28, 2021, at 10:29 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Mmhm. Nice, David. Very nice. Fine job of catching the nuances of the
>>> > individualist as a union man. Webb’s complexity as a character and the
>>> > historical scenes that aligned him with the working stiffs of the
>>> American
>>> > west during the bad old days is a particularly captivating ‘chapter’
>>> in the
>>> > larger narrative. What happened to the unions, I hear P asking
>>> > rhetorically, they forgot who they worked for responds the family left
>>> > behind to wander adrift through the fragments of the world. Commitment
>>> is a
>>> > cesspool in the workers’ world, and labor is the turdpile of commerce.
>>> > Flush after scented flush. The union, to pull a little Norris into the
>>> mix,
>>> > is an arm of the octopus. Given enough time and space I could run out
>>> > metaphors to mix into the mess.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my iPhone
>>> > >
>>> > >> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I’ve cleaned it up a bit, but my conclusion is the same:  Pynchon’s
>>> > >> portrayal of Unions in ATD is not even close to an endorsement.
>>> Also,
>>> > the
>>> > >> funny thing is that (with these sections being discussed in this and
>>> > last
>>> > >> weeks’ reading schedule) no moderator even commented on Webb’s being
>>> > >> shuffled away by the Union when he started showing neediness, or the
>>> > Union
>>> > >> not even sending flowers to his funeral.  I think that says
>>> something
>>> > about
>>> > >> modern-day perceptions of the usefulness of unions.
>>> > >> —————————-
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Lately there’s been some “side” attention being paid to ATD over at
>>> the
>>> > >> P-List as they pursue their group read of Bleeding Edge. As they
>>> try to
>>> > >> understand Late Capitalism in BE, speculations are being made about
>>> why
>>> > >> nobody from the Union attended Webb’s funeral, and somebody
>>> remembered
>>> > >> Mayva and Reef’s exchange:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> p.215 They stood huddled together in Lone Tree Cemetery, the miners’
>>> > >> graveyard at the end of town, Mayva, Lake, Frank, and Reed, beneath
>>> the
>>> > >> great peaks and behind them the long, descending trace of Bridal
>>> Veil
>>> > Falls
>>> > >> whispering raggedly into the cold sunlight. Webb’s life and work had
>>> > come
>>> > >> to this.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> She [Mayva] was quiet [...] “Thought the Union would’ve sent
>>> flowers at
>>> > >> least.”
>>> > >>
>>> > >> “Not them.” It is just the meanest kind of disrespect, Reef
>>> thought, and
>>> > >> fuck all these people.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> That seems like a pretty harsh portrayal by Pynchon of the Union.
>>> Webb
>>> > >> literally gave his whole heart and soul to the Union. And for his
>>> love
>>> > of
>>> > >> the Union, he was brutally, slowly, and sadistictly tortured, and
>>> > finally,
>>> > >> unmercifully allowed to die, his body dumped and displayed at for
>>> > ridicule
>>> > >> in an earthly Hell. And, then, at his funeral in the miners’
>>> cemetery,
>>> > he
>>> > >> is show “the meanest kind of disrespect” by the Union.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> So, “over there” at the BE group they are asking “Why?” Had Webb’s
>>> > >> unsolicited terrorism over the years soured the Union on him (now
>>> that
>>> > they
>>> > >> were “established?”) Maybe everyone was afraid to show up, to be
>>> put on
>>> > >> “their” list of funeral attendees? But the text doesn’t hint at any
>>> of
>>> > >> those reasons. We’re never actually told if the Union knew Webb was
>>> that
>>> > >> secret bomber, or if any Union had ever (in either real or fictional
>>> > life)
>>> > >> publicly opposed bombings supporting the Union. But that seems like
>>> > >> grasping at straws.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Backing up a bit with Webb’s story, we learn that Mayva had recently
>>> > left
>>> > >> Webb, hoping to watch over Lake, who seemed to be personally
>>> > floundering.
>>> > >> After his death the two discuss Webb. Mayva regrets not having gone
>>> > back to
>>> > >> Webb, the three of them leaving together for “some place those
>>> people
>>> > don’t
>>> > >> go, don’t even know about, down out of these god-damned mountains,
>>> could
>>> > >> have found us a patch of land —.”  But Lake reminds her, “We were
>>> never
>>> > >> that important to him, Mamma. He had his almighty damn Union, that’s
>>> > what
>>> > >> he loved. If he loved anything.”
>>> > >>
>>> > >> And immediately the narrator tells us:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> P.192. “IF IT WAS LOVE, it was less than two-way. With no more
>>> > respectable
>>> > >> family-man dodge to hide behind, Webb sought the embrace of Local
>>> 63,
>>> > >> which, alarmed at the vehemence of his need, decided there ought to
>>> be
>>> > some
>>> > >> distance between him and the Union, and suggested he shift over
>>> into the
>>> > >> Uncompahgre for a while, to the Torpedo workings."
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Again, the Union is shown as completely uncaring about Webb,
>>> finding his
>>> > >> neediness “alarming,” and shuffling him away, out of sight. But,
>>> > >> importantly, Webb admits here that he’d been hiding behind all that
>>> time
>>> > >> behind a “respectable family-man dodge,” now gone away with Mayva
>>> and
>>> > Lake.
>>> > >> But who was he hiding FROM behind that dodge?
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Well, Webb tells us what IS HIS TRUE LOVE with this confession: Now
>>> that
>>> > >> Webb had lost the last two of “his own family, the ones [the women]
>>> that
>>> > >> ought to’ve mattered most,” it now seemed “as if with the boys all
>>> out
>>> > >> there in the wind his place was now [now, having been left alone
>>> without
>>> > >> the women] out there in the wind too.” And he figures that his
>>> “chances
>>> > of
>>> > >> running into each other [with the boys] again were better out there
>>> > than in
>>> > >> some domestic interior” [as he’d been all those years with Mayva].
>>> > >>
>>> > >> In this context, his having played the “respectable family-man
>>> dodge to
>>> > >> hide behind” was him *dodging from himself*, not the Company. And
>>> thus
>>> > Webb
>>> > >> admits that his “real love” WAS the Union, and it WAS being a free
>>> and
>>> > wild
>>> > >> man “out there in the wind” like his sons. One could ask which of
>>> *these
>>> > >> two* were his real love, his being out there free in the wind, or
>>> his
>>> > love
>>> > >> of the ideals of Union brotherhood, and clearly the answer would be
>>> the
>>> > >> former: his freedom. But if the Union was also a dodge, it at least
>>> > >> represented his attempt to maintain *some* personal agency and
>>> > self-respect
>>> > >> while living in this capitalist world.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> But then we see “Webb’s life and work had come to this.” This is
>>> truly a
>>> > >> sad end. And it’s FAR from a ringing endorsement of Unions as the
>>> > solution
>>> > >> to a person’s delemna in these Late Capital Days.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> David Morris
>>> > >> --
>>> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> > > --
>>> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >
>>> --
>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>
>>