Re: My Reddit comments on Webb’s funeral

Thu Dec 30 23:51:35 UTC 2021

I’m sorry, but (and I’ve said it before) I just can’t read emails like this
that Joe often sends.

Joe: Can you at least use paragraphs?  I know there are three breaks in
this one, and that’s an improvement.  But when I start reading, you run on
and on and I lose your points and you lose my interest.  So at this point,
I just throw them out before finishing them.  If you just used paragraphs…

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 12:52 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> I continue to think the passage of the Union not showing up at Webb’s
> funeral cannot be reduced to Pynchon is exposing the union movement of the
> time as a force that has betrayed the workers. As a matter of fact I think
> that claim is seriously misguided and inconsistent with much in Pynchon’s
> writing that basically aligns unions with the counterforce.  It is not that
> hard to find something that reinforces the reader’s belief system, which is
> what I see happening in this case, people do it a lot: Pynchon is a
> conservative catholic, Pynchon is a sexist, Pynchon is a master of the high
> literary shaggy dog story that allows readers to see what they want, It’s
> all about the Menippean Satire, Pynchon is the leading post-modern novelist
> and you can only understand him if you use terms like post-modern and
> subverting the diegesis , Pynchon thinks dogs can talk and are smarter than
> humans, Pynchon believes in alien invaders directing the planet toward
> doom,  Pynchon hates all cops, Pynchon hates all hippies, Pynchon is a
> champion of the Gold standard, Pynchon opposes all violence, Pynchon
> believes in violent revolution. Whatever.  There is a range of truth in
> these statements but they are all flawed in the same way, just too fucking
> absolutist. It is not that no broad patterns of sympathy and critique
> emerge from these novels. I would argue as have many others that a fairly
> consistent pattern of sympathy and harsh critique do. But the entire body
> of work puts absolute ideals and values to the test in the complexity of
> human affairs and so compels readers to think a bit more relativistically.
> But he is not a moral relativist either IMO.
>
> As to Pynchon’s sympathy with unions( Luddite essay, counterforce, ATD
> anarchists and unions, Vineland Hollywood and logger’s  unions), with
> individual pursuit of knowledge and freedom, with  humane-non-totalitarian
> socialism( The preface to 1984),  with anti-colonialism on an
> organizational level, with non-ownership based human relations, with joyful
> and at times silly encounters with various states of sublime exaltation,
>  with the anarchist vision of  cooperative leaderless social structures,
> and  with pretty much all forms of resistance to ensalvement, abuse, the
> rape of nature, and elite control of violence, these sympathies and
> corresponding antipathies permeate the body of work and constitute a
> compelling look at the human condition, at history, at the individual in
> the modern world and even a roughly outlined spiritual/ethical cosmos.
> .
> Part of the problem here is that most of the list is not reading Against
> the Day, a very rangy book with plenty of material about unions, about
> anarchism as movement and as an idividualized pursuit, and about flawed
> humans shaped by emotions and experience. He also gives probably an equal
> amount of coverage of plutocrats and their children and even their inner
> lives, mining companies , railroads as tools of empire, mercenaries as
> tools of empire, the great game leading to WW1 etc. etc.…  I am one of the
> 2 people from p-list who are reading ATD, in my case  for the 4th or maybe
> 6th time.  I could summon a fair body of text about Unions but I am more
> than skeptical that a thoughtful literary disagreement is what is wanted.
> While Morris’s argument is being made on the reddit read of ATD and that
> group is open to anyone, basically this idea has not been taken up as
> somethng of interest to other reddit participants. The Reddit crowd is
> thinning fast, but there is a hardcore base that are lkely to see it
> through They seem younger and it will be interesting to see how they
> consider the role of unions and anarchism as a whole.
>
>
>
> > On Dec 30, 2021, at 10:38 AM, Allen Ruch <quail at shipwrecklibrary.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Great work, David
> >
> > And yes, I agree with the "parsing" 100%. In fact, for about ten years
> now I do all my reading on my iPad. And I use multi-colored "highlighters,"
> which each color signifying a different reason to highlight. I use green
> for "Pynchon's main points,"  so many Pynchon chapters contain long,
> convoluted sentences with the main points in green. And when you connect
> these green threads together, something pretty clear and consistent
> unsually emerges.
> >
> > So thanks, David, for your excellent green highlighting!
> >
> > —Quai
> >
> > On 12/29/21, 6:07 PM, "Pynchon-l on behalf of Mark Kohut" <
> pynchon-l-bounces at waste.org on behalf of mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >    "Pynchon purposely writes in multi-disjointed fashion, but if you
> really
> >    track it, parse it, it will eventually make sense."----parsing all of
> it
> >    keeps me hooked too....
> >    It is the way........"why should reading be easy" as TRP wrote
> >    somewhere and, yes, when you found that connection you spoke of,  You
> had
> >    me convinced....
> >
> >    On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 4:37 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks, Mark.
> >>
> >> Breaking through the long and somewhat convoluted paragraph about Webb’s
> >> dodge was the key to understanding his heart, but not really, because
> his
> >> actions all along had always displayed it (as Lake said). There’s
> another
> >> short bit earlier in the book that also hints at Webb’s conflicted
> heart.
> >>
> >> Quite a while ago an old P-Lister told me that he found that parsing
> >> Pynchon wasn’t useful, and I strongly disagreed with that, and still do.
> >> Pynchon purposely writes in multi-disjointed fashion, but if you really
> >> track it, parse it, it will eventually make sense.  He makes that kind
> of
> >> puzzle with his words.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 2:57 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> David,
> >>>
> >>> A terrif post, a fine mini-essay of close reading of a part of AtD. ..I
> >>> have a question or two and maybe an observation but I have to read THIS
> >>> again and check out
> >>> AtD again unlike my hip-shooting a bit ago. (I can shoot from the hip
> OK,
> >>> a little less well when riding and very spotty when shooting under the
> >>> horse while leaning over
> >>> at a galloping paste without taking the time to reread the right
> >>> sections.)
> >>>
> >>> I might not have the time either.
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 7:39 AM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 2:07 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> There is a huge leap from these union leaders in this instance treated
> >>>> this
> >>>>> union person badly to all unions forgot who they worked for.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Right.  Pynchon just happened to write about this random
> only-one-person
> >>>> in
> >>>> this only-one-instance because it’s not like something you should
> make it
> >>>> court case over it.  I mean, Jeeze!  Get over it!
> >>>>
> >>>> There is more to union and union busting activity in ATD than this
> scene.
> >>>>> Pynchonis not a hagiographer of any movement, organization, nation or
> >>>> much
> >>>>> of anything. People in Thomas Pynchon books tend to show their entire
> >>>>> character and behavior  including flaws.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Right!  And Unions are just PEOPLE!  Right?  I mean,  like,
>  EVERYBODY
> >>>> makes mistakes!   Whataya gunna do about it!
> >>>>
> >>>> Unions and revolutionaries in ATD are acting in human response to
> violent
> >>>>> authoritarianism. The plutes the politicians, the media the
> mercenaries
> >>>>> and the banks are organized to get what they can, and the unions,
> >>>>> anarchists,  some individualists, and others form a resistance to
> those
> >>>>> authoritarions that directly limit tthe dignity and value of their
> >>>> lives.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> IMO
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh!  THIS is what we’ve all been waiting for!
> >>>>
> >>>> Trying to argue that Pynchon is anti-union is a lonely position in the
> >>>> body
> >>>>> of academic response to P’s writing, and picking out this example as
> >>>> proof
> >>>>> is
> >>>>
> >>>> missing the forest for a shrub.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 10:29 PM, Ian Livingston <
> igrlivingston at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mmhm. Nice, David. Very nice. Fine job of catching the nuances of
> the
> >>>>> individualist as a union man. Webb’s complexity as a character and
> the
> >>>>> historical scenes that aligned him with the working stiffs of the
> >>>> American
> >>>>> west during the bad old days is a particularly captivating ‘chapter’
> >>>> in the
> >>>>> larger narrative. What happened to the unions, I hear P asking
> >>>>> rhetorically, they forgot who they worked for responds the family
> left
> >>>>> behind to wander adrift through the fragments of the world.
> Commitment
> >>>> is a
> >>>>> cesspool in the workers’ world, and labor is the turdpile of
> commerce.
> >>>>> Flush after scented flush. The union, to pull a little Norris into
> the
> >>>> mix,
> >>>>> is an arm of the octopus. Given enough time and space I could run out
> >>>>> metaphors to mix into the mess.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I’ve cleaned it up a bit, but my conclusion is the same:  Pynchon’s
> >>>>>>> portrayal of Unions in ATD is not even close to an endorsement.
> >>>> Also,
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>> funny thing is that (with these sections being discussed in this
> and
> >>>>> last
> >>>>>>> weeks’ reading schedule) no moderator even commented on Webb’s
> being
> >>>>>>> shuffled away by the Union when he started showing neediness, or
> the
> >>>>> Union
> >>>>>>> not even sending flowers to his funeral.  I think that says
> >>>> something
> >>>>> about
> >>>>>>> modern-day perceptions of the usefulness of unions.
> >>>>>>> —————————-
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lately there’s been some “side” attention being paid to ATD over at
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> P-List as they pursue their group read of Bleeding Edge. As they
> >>>> try to
> >>>>>>> understand Late Capitalism in BE, speculations are being made about
> >>>> why
> >>>>>>> nobody from the Union attended Webb’s funeral, and somebody
> >>>> remembered
> >>>>>>> Mayva and Reef’s exchange:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> p.215 They stood huddled together in Lone Tree Cemetery, the
> miners’
> >>>>>>> graveyard at the end of town, Mayva, Lake, Frank, and Reed, beneath
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> great peaks and behind them the long, descending trace of Bridal
> >>>> Veil
> >>>>> Falls
> >>>>>>> whispering raggedly into the cold sunlight. Webb’s life and work
> had
> >>>>> come
> >>>>>>> to this.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> She [Mayva] was quiet [...] “Thought the Union would’ve sent
> >>>> flowers at
> >>>>>>> least.”
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> “Not them.” It is just the meanest kind of disrespect, Reef
> >>>> thought, and
> >>>>>>> fuck all these people.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That seems like a pretty harsh portrayal by Pynchon of the Union.
> >>>> Webb
> >>>>>>> literally gave his whole heart and soul to the Union. And for his
> >>>> love
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the Union, he was brutally, slowly, and sadistictly tortured, and
> >>>>> finally,
> >>>>>>> unmercifully allowed to die, his body dumped and displayed at for
> >>>>> ridicule
> >>>>>>> in an earthly Hell. And, then, at his funeral in the miners’
> >>>> cemetery,
> >>>>> he
> >>>>>>> is show “the meanest kind of disrespect” by the Union.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, “over there” at the BE group they are asking “Why?” Had Webb’s
> >>>>>>> unsolicited terrorism over the years soured the Union on him (now
> >>>> that
> >>>>> they
> >>>>>>> were “established?”) Maybe everyone was afraid to show up, to be
> >>>> put on
> >>>>>>> “their” list of funeral attendees? But the text doesn’t hint at any
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>> those reasons. We’re never actually told if the Union knew Webb was
> >>>> that
> >>>>>>> secret bomber, or if any Union had ever (in either real or
> fictional
> >>>>> life)
> >>>>>>> publicly opposed bombings supporting the Union. But that seems like
> >>>>>>> grasping at straws.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Backing up a bit with Webb’s story, we learn that Mayva had
> recently
> >>>>> left
> >>>>>>> Webb, hoping to watch over Lake, who seemed to be personally
> >>>>> floundering.
> >>>>>>> After his death the two discuss Webb. Mayva regrets not having gone
> >>>>> back to
> >>>>>>> Webb, the three of them leaving together for “some place those
> >>>> people
> >>>>> don’t
> >>>>>>> go, don’t even know about, down out of these god-damned mountains,
> >>>> could
> >>>>>>> have found us a patch of land —.”  But Lake reminds her, “We were
> >>>> never
> >>>>>>> that important to him, Mamma. He had his almighty damn Union,
> that’s
> >>>>> what
> >>>>>>> he loved. If he loved anything.”
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And immediately the narrator tells us:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> P.192. “IF IT WAS LOVE, it was less than two-way. With no more
> >>>>> respectable
> >>>>>>> family-man dodge to hide behind, Webb sought the embrace of Local
> >>>> 63,
> >>>>>>> which, alarmed at the vehemence of his need, decided there ought to
> >>>> be
> >>>>> some
> >>>>>>> distance between him and the Union, and suggested he shift over
> >>>> into the
> >>>>>>> Uncompahgre for a while, to the Torpedo workings."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Again, the Union is shown as completely uncaring about Webb,
> >>>> finding his
> >>>>>>> neediness “alarming,” and shuffling him away, out of sight. But,
> >>>>>>> importantly, Webb admits here that he’d been hiding behind all that
> >>>> time
> >>>>>>> behind a “respectable family-man dodge,” now gone away with Mayva
> >>>> and
> >>>>> Lake.
> >>>>>>> But who was he hiding FROM behind that dodge?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, Webb tells us what IS HIS TRUE LOVE with this confession: Now
> >>>> that
> >>>>>>> Webb had lost the last two of “his own family, the ones [the women]
> >>>> that
> >>>>>>> ought to’ve mattered most,” it now seemed “as if with the boys all
> >>>> out
> >>>>>>> there in the wind his place was now [now, having been left alone
> >>>> without
> >>>>>>> the women] out there in the wind too.” And he figures that his
> >>>> “chances
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>> running into each other [with the boys] again were better out there
> >>>>> than in
> >>>>>>> some domestic interior” [as he’d been all those years with Mayva].
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In this context, his having played the “respectable family-man
> >>>> dodge to
> >>>>>>> hide behind” was him *dodging from himself*, not the Company. And
> >>>> thus
> >>>>> Webb
> >>>>>>> admits that his “real love” WAS the Union, and it WAS being a free
> >>>> and
> >>>>> wild
> >>>>>>> man “out there in the wind” like his sons. One could ask which of
> >>>> *these
> >>>>>>> two* were his real love, his being out there free in the wind, or
> >>>> his
> >>>>> love
> >>>>>>> of the ideals of Union brotherhood, and clearly the answer would be
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> former: his freedom. But if the Union was also a dodge, it at least
> >>>>>>> represented his attempt to maintain *some* personal agency and
> >>>>> self-respect
> >>>>>>> while living in this capitalist world.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But then we see “Webb’s life and work had come to this.” This is
> >>>> truly a
> >>>>>>> sad end. And it’s FAR from a ringing endorsement of Unions as the
> >>>>> solution
> >>>>>>> to a person’s delemna in these Late Capital Days.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> David Morris
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>
> >>>
> >    --
> >    Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>
>
>
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>