MJJG: intertextual link-o-mania - 115 al fine

Sat Jan 16 03:09:25 UTC 2021

We almost agree.  Warhol very consciously espoused a polemic via his art,
not via words, but also by his wigged, whispered and shaded mumbles.  I
love the Velvet Underground video that T-Eck posted.  They understood
Warhol to a T.  The line, "Let's make a movie [...] I won't have to be
there" is superb for its cynicism.  The cynicism is an amalgamation of
media and money, celebrity and commerce, consumers and advertising.  It is
a very dark vision IMHO.  I can't deny it's truth, but I resist it.  The
art will endure, maybe as a warning, if we survive.

David Morris

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 5:33 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll agree, I think. The art, the real art, survives. And he polemicized
> outside of his art hardly at all.
> He did his art. His art was the revolution. It is overall what I
> summarized it as, I still think.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 15, 2021, at 5:37 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Every revolution requires a polemic.  A part of Pop Art's revolution was
> valuing ideas over products, thus birthing Conceptual Art and Performance
> Art, where products fade away.  The only thing ever proved wrong are the
> polemics.
>
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 4:23 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It wasn't a polemic. It was the revolution he brought to art. Almost all
>> art movements, literary to the visual thru music do it. No movements that
>> come later "prove him/them wrong".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jan 15, 2021, at 5:18 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> His polemic was that painting and drawing were dead arts, just like the
>> abstractionists declared figurative art dead.  Subsequent artists have
>> proven them wrong.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 4:09 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> He kept drawing but yes he knew that was an historically dead
>>> achievement.
>>> I disagree that it was drenched in cynicism. A deep satirical
>>> perspective on his culture often.
>>> Playful celebration of life and aspects of it too. Deep insight into how
>>> we are America and it is us overall.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Jan 15, 2021, at 4:49 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Warhol’s hand-drawing skills really have next to nothing to do with his
>>> subsequent Pop Art.  Yes, he had an eye, but he might as well have had no
>>> hands to make his admittedly breakthrough later art.  His megastar next
>>> generation Pop Art master, Jeff Koons, never touched the work that made him
>>> very rich.  Their real value was social commentary, and as such was
>>> drenched in cynicism.  I much prefer the ultra hands-on work of the
>>> abstract impressionists that preceded them.
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 12:30 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes Warhol was, thanks David, I can't take any more crazy.  NOT TURDS,
>>>> however we argue.....
>>>>
>>>> But No, I do not think Pynchon targeted Warhol with that artist in V.:
>>>> he targeted
>>>> any of the artists such as in* The Recognitions *who, as Gaddis shows,
>>>> have hardly had an original brush stroke in their whole career. Who cannot
>>>> see the origin of what they think is new.
>>>>
>>>> Warhol was not nationally famous until 1964. His NYC and beyond fame
>>>> earlier was for utter originality and genius. The commercial Tiffany's
>>>> Christmas window
>>>> of one silver shoe suspended against an all-black window box; the
>>>> variety of his pure drawings---he could draw perfect circles at will and
>>>> any other shapes. Look up his
>>>> incredible pure pen, pencil or charcoal (I think) drawings of the
>>>> fifties.
>>>>
>>>> I think Pynchon would know this as in the air and, further, would not
>>>> see a new pop artist as he presents this nobodaddy epigone in V.
>>>> Pynchon would have liked pop art, I suggest, loved it even, as he does
>>>> meaningful cartoons and comics....
>>>>
>>>> From wikipedia on Warhol:
>>>>
>>>> He began exhibiting his work during the 1950s. He held exhibitions at
>>>> the Hugo Gallery <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Gallery>[31]
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol#cite_note-31> and the Bodley
>>>> Gallery <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodley_Gallery>[32]
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol#cite_note-32> in New York
>>>> City; in California, his first West Coast gallery exhibition[33]
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol#cite_note-An38-33>[34]
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol#cite_note-L32-34> was on
>>>> July 9, 1962, in the Ferus Gallery
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferus_Gallery> of Los Angeles with Campbell's
>>>> Soup Cans <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_Soup_Cans>. The
>>>> exhibition marked his West Coast
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_of_the_United_States> debut
>>>> of pop art.[35]
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol#cite_note-L158-35> Andy
>>>> Warhol's first New York solo pop art
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_art> exhibition was hosted at
>>>> Eleanor Ward's Stable Gallery
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_Gallery> November 6–24, 1962.
>>>> The exhibit included the works *Marilyn Diptych
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Diptych>*, *100 Soup Cans*, *100
>>>> Coke Bottles*, and *100 Dollar Bills*. At the Stable Gallery
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_Gallery> exhibit, t
>>>>
>>>> It was during the 1960s that Warhol began to make paintings of iconic
>>>> American objects such as dollar bills, mushroom clouds
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom_cloud>, electric chairs
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_chair>, Campbell's Soup Cans
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_Soup_Cans>, Coca-Cola
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola> bottles, celebrities such as Marilyn
>>>> Monroe <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Monroe>, Elvis Presley
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley>, Marlon Brando
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlon_Brando>, Troy Donahue
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Donahue>, Muhammad Ali
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali>, and Elizabeth Taylor
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Taylor>, as well as newspaper
>>>> headlines or photographs of police dogs attacking African-American
>>>> protesters during the Birmingham campaign
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_campaign> in the civil
>>>> rights movement <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights_movement>.
>>>> During these years, he founded his studio, "The Factory
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Factory>" and gathered about him a
>>>> wide range of artists, writers, musicians, and underground
>>>>
>>>> A pivotal event was the 1964 exhibit *The American Supermarket*, a
>>>> show held in Paul Bianchini's Upper East Side gallery. "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read Danto on warhol; read the great new bio of him by Gopnick.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 1:10 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Clearly Warhol was the target.  I think Pynchon also targets Warhol in
>>>>> V with the painter in the Whole Sick Crew who painted endless varieties of
>>>>> knishes (or was it bagels, I forget).
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 11:05 AM Thomas Eckhardt <
>>>>> thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I did not mean to insult Andy Warhol, if that is what you are
>>>>>> referring
>>>>>> to. Also, one would of course have to take into account who is
>>>>>> talking
>>>>>> to whom here, and to what purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 15.01.2021 um 16:15 schrieb Mark Kohut:
>>>>>> > HELL NO, IN THUNDER as Melville writes.....
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > C'mon, man....
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:05 AM Thomas Eckhardt
>>>>>> > <thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de <mailto:thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >     pg. 112 in the Penguin Modern Classics edition:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >     "1 of these days 1 of our sons, perhaps the son of a Polish
>>>>>> immigrant,
>>>>>> >     will emerge from some steel town in Pennsylvania and mount a
>>>>>> turd on
>>>>>> >     the
>>>>>> >     wall of a museum and make it stick. . .and when you ask him
>>>>>> what it is
>>>>>> >     he will put on his dark glasses and snub you the way you did
>>>>>> us."
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >     This is, more or less, Andy Warhol, no?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >       > 8) pg 135 - _Moby-Dick_
>>>>>> >       > (Musclewhite horrified that a black person dared to
>>>>>> interpret it)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >     pg. 114: An anachronistic reference to C.L.R. James' "Mariners,
>>>>>> >     Renegades and Castaways" (1953), perhaps? Or are there other
>>>>>> candidates?
>>>>>> >     --
>>>>>> >     Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>>>> >     <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>