No comment although I have them.

Thu Oct 14 16:47:02 UTC 2021

Pardon the interruption, but you my friend, we are friends.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:48 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> I was considering the linguistic roots of annihilation to mean something
> like making null. I was talking about making null the conceptual framework
> of a nation, not destroying people or a place.      I can understand
> confusion over the term and should have tried for greater clarity on that
> point. To my thinking nations are fictions that can change and even
> disappear  with or without injury to actual living beings.
>  I am not on Mach T’s side, whatever that is, and do not want to confront
> anything intellectually but hate, fear and violence against people, other
> life forms, the air, water, oceans.  I thought many or most of the points
> in your response to mach thomberi were sound and well said, and he has now
> made it clear that he wasn’t speaking tongue-in-cheek, which seemed
> possible to me with his first post, though I couldn’t tell. .
>
> As for labeling my writing as tirades and rants lacking meaningful
> contribution…… well, you seem all too ready to annihilate the actual intent
> and meaning of my words with out-of-control assuptions about my intentions
> or alliances. I don’t think I am the one who is angry here, which is the
> essence of a tirade. I prefer respectful discourse but do not like words
> being put in my mouth. If you have done that through a sincere
> misunderstanding of my intentions, well that can happen.  Let’s try to put
> it behind us.
> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 3:05 AM, matthew cissell <mccissl at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Tracy,
> >
> > Ok, you stepped into the ring. I've seen your lengthy tirades and rants
> and normally ignore them as they lack depth, clarity and any meaningful
> contribution to discussed topics. You say I am wildly sentimental? Go look
> at your own words. You have certainly misunderstood the rhetoric employed
> in my post, the purpose of which was to compare the creation of the USA and
> Israel as "imagined communities"; the ideas that feed into Zionism (go read
> some Isaiah Berlin) and the desire of the jewish people to have a land of
> their own is the same as the creation of the US (mutatis mutandis), a point
> that did not escape Edward Said.
> >
> > As for Zionism, you might hold back on your "disease" metaphor and go
> listen to some reggae that is heavily Zionist in its outlook and language.
> Irie.
> >
> > Oh, go look up the word "annihilation"; in German it means Vernichtung.
> Sound familiar? Imagine someone annihilating your garden, house, or
> community. Does it sound loaded? Loaded like a chamber slipping into the
> chamber as the sights train on you? Because violence is behind what you
> imply.
> >
> > And if you want to be on Mach T's side go right ahead but I don't think
> you will like the company much as they are serious hamberder munchers and
> they are ready to produce a thousand years of peace, it just involves
> undoing a bit of history and then making everyone forget. Gosh, that almost
> sounds nice but it won't be with "Imagine" on the soundtrack, unless the
> lyrics have been rewritten by Identitarians, national conservatives, white
> nationalists or whatever euphemistic label they have cooked up to rename
> their creed: fascism.
> >
> > Y por cierto, there are certainly aspects of Israeli governmental action
> that look fascistic at times. You see, the wonder of fascism is that it can
> appeal to anyone - jews, gays, POC, ... you and me.
> >
> > And finally, as that great author once wrote, "It is not enough to be
> anti-fascist, one must also be anti-totalitarian."
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > MC, son of Homer and descendant of Irish, Scots and Cherokee (among
> others) and a wrestler struggling with the nightmare of history and the
> madness of humans. Ni dios, ni patria, ni rey. Ne Obliviscaris.
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 6:21 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:
> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> > Annihilation is a loaded word. It sounds cruel and violent. Truthfully
> though, a name or concept or form of government can be eliminated or
> replaced without destroying human lives or poisoning the earth. Nations and
> religions have changed and died before with little or even benign
> consequences. And those nations  that survived and rose to become “great
> powers" have a pretty shitty track record to justify themselves. Imagine
> all the people living life in peace.
> > I don’t know exactly what Thomberi ( sounds a made up name) is
> intending, whether tongue in cheek or weirdly sincere, but I think matthew
> c is wildly sentimentalizing how Israel came into being. As to what is to
> be done. It is a question for all of us, not just Israel. Settler
> colonialism and its cruelties are embedded in most of the world. Western
> civilization as configured has desertified vast parts of the globe, moved
> sane indiginous cultures into bantustans and is rapidly destroying the
> diverse species upon which life as we know it exists, rapidly moving us
> toward waves of mass destruction . As for me, yes i really am ready to hand
> over my land and the very concept of property to the tribal peoples of
> north america. Would they want this mess, our mini-flags, banks and
> fracking machines? I don’t know, but I could not be more serious about my
> acre of workspace , fruit trees, asparagus, maple trees, and stone walls.
> My whole life is about the effort to move myself and others toward an
> ecologically sustainable life, and the biggest impediment to change is the
> settler colonialist warfare that continues from the ancient to the modern
> world, that turns from warlordism to nationalism  to imperial warfare. What
> Israel and the US and China and Russia and Brazil and Canada and so many
> rapacious military dictatorships are expressing in this shared planet  is
> varying forms of  sociopathic madness organized by  self destructive
> dreams, egomania, and imaginary polities that have ravaged our common sense
> as animals, our friendliness as neighbors, our ability to choose life above
> what they have too offer. And what do they have to offer as their
> civilization crumbles? Comfortable places to watch the world burn, endless
> entertaining air conditioned shitpiles, debt,  fat people eating big juicy
> hamburgers and an all too violent and real global annihilation, James Bond
> may or may not have lost his dick, but he stil has a license to kill.
> >
> >  Zionism is the same disease as the master race, manifest destiny,
> salafism, pax romana, capitalism, militarism. Its origins can be read by
> anyone. Joshua crosses into “ the promised land” to kill the sinful
> Canaanites or make them into slaves to the chosen people.”Blessed is he who
> dashes thy little ones against a stone”. This fable has become the script
> for modern day Israel, just as some version of this script has written so
> much human history. It will script global suicide if we let it. If we
> cannot prevent it.
> >
> > Zionism was never the remarkable part of Judaism, the heart of this holy
> path is to choose life, to love the great mystery of being wih all the
> heart and all the mind and the very kernel of life we have been given, and
> to treat others as we wish to be treated.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 13, 2021, at 4:14 PM, matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com
> <mailto:mccissell at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Mach,
> > >
> > > So let me see. You seem to propose the annihilation of Israel, a
> country
> > > created whole cloth from ideas, dreams, stories and more by carving
> out a
> > > space for that community that had formed a nation but lacked a state.
> > >
> > > Ok. Two things (that I'll say) occur to me: What do you propose for the
> > > people? Do you have some... solution for them as well? Would it be the
> same
> > > for Arabic and Jewish citizens? What would it entail?
> > >
> > > Next: If you (and others that share your view) are the descendent of
> > > Europeans living in the Americas (or some other previously
> > > colonized place), I suppose you are also ready to 'undo' your county
> and
> > > hand over your land to the indigenous communities. Or are you writing
> from
> > > somewhere else, in which case we might talk about that place.
> > >
> > > Criticizing the trespasses of any country or government is one thing,
> but
> > > calling for its abolition is something else. The actions of the Israeli
> > > government have often been reprehensible or even criminal, but that
> does
> > > not justify your language, which would certainly find applause and
> echoes
> > > in a certain rising current in not only US political discourse but more
> > > widely.
> > >
> > > I'm responding not because I think your mind is likely to be changed
> but
> > > because I want you and others to know that in this open forum you will
> find
> > > voices that do not apathetically ignore your statements.
> > >
> > > Ne Obliviscaris
> > > Matthew Cissell
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:33 PM Mach Thomberi <machthomberi at gmail.com
> <mailto:machthomberi at gmail.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> No we wouldn't want that would we.  Deprive Israel water and medicine.
> > >>
> > >> What would be marvelous.  Would be removing Israel from the map.  Cut
> it
> > >> out and dispense it into the ether.
> > >>
> > >> Then do likewise of our collective memory of Israel.
> > >> On Oct 13, 2021 9:23 AM, "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:
> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I would not go so far as to cut Israelis off from medicine or clean
> water
> > >>> as they have done to Gaza, but a cultural boycott is potentially a
> way to
> > >>> bring the debate into a more public sphere. We need equally to
> confront
> > >>> what so many in the western press and politics  have done on this
> issue.
> > >>> They  have supported  the insane idea that anyone who publicly
> > >> criticizes
> > >>> Israel’s abuse of Palestinians is doing so out of  anti-semitism.
> They
> > >> are
> > >>> labeled  anti-semitic even if they are Jews whose parents and
> relatives
> > >>> survived or died  in Nazi concentration camps.
> > >>>  Sally Rooney said she would be honored to have her book translated
> to
> > >>> Hebrew but will not work with a publisher who does not distance
> > >> themselves
> > >>> from Israel’s aparteid treatment of Palestinians.
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Oct 11, 2021, at 3:44 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> <mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Why no comment?  This is a place for opinion.  As for me, I say
> > >> Bravo!  I
> > >>>> think Israel deserves full apartheid treatment right now.  And too
> many
> > >>>> people are afraid to say so.   There!  I said it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> David Morris
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 3:25 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <mailto:mark.kohut at gmail.com>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney- <
> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney->
> > >>> allow-her-latest-novel-to-be-translated-into-hebrew/
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >>>
> > >> --
> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >>
> > > --
> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>