No comment although I have them.

Thu Oct 14 20:52:16 UTC 2021

Trolls don’t last long here because people are smart enough to just ignore
them.  You are very close to getting ignored.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:52 PM Mach Thomberi <machthomberi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> One might what.  I didn't quite get the jizz of that mindless schpieel.
>
> Why can't we change it from the plist to the
>
> TOTAL FUCKING KOHUT LIST.
> On Oct 14, 2021 12:02 PM, "Mark Kohut" <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Also, the US commitments to effect climate change, have been called by an
> > outside organization, policies that match
> > the recommendations as necessary, that if all countries were to commit to
> > and do would meet the goal
> > of staying under 2 degrees Celsius per the recent MAJOR, scary, UN
> > Report.....
> >
> > That is, these policies meet the UN Report's recommendations to achieve
> the
> > stated goal. One might think the admin
> > talked to the UN as that report was being written---the science compiled
> > over years, as we know--and met the guidelines. One might.....
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 11:17 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >
> > >  I don't have that clear a take on some imagined world majority  and I
> > > wish I could sincerely agree but at this point I stand with Greta,
> what
> > we
> > > hear from so called leaders is blah blah, blah, and what we see is
> > growing
> > > arms sales , continued growth in C02 emissions, threats  and violent
> > > blockades by the US,  mass survellance, publishers being tortured for
> > > publishing the same thing as the NY Times,  pipelines and a revived
> > nuclear
> > > arms program.  I could go on but what is the point.
> > >    It’s true that there are many, many people who want change and they
> > > gladden my heart as they do yours. They are not yet organized as an
> > > effective agent of change though most do what they can. In the lead up
> to
> > > the second Iraq war the world saw the biggest anti-war demonstration in
> > > human history and the biggest global demonstration ever, rivaled only
> by
> > > climate crisis activism. It did not stop the war and was barely covered
> > in
> > > the US press.
> > >
> > > On Oct 14, 2021, at 10:00 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I will assert as baldly as your assertions that the majority of the
> > people
> > > in the Pokey Little Puppy's Whole
> > > Wide World are acting and imagining outside of this blanket
> condemnation:
> > >  "imagine solutions than are not reliant on war, poisons and ecological
> > > rape."
> > >
> > > Many businesses, many countries, with whatever else they are also
> doing,
> > > are acting FINALLY against this 'reliance".
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:51 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> The historic creation of Israel is a subject that has already led to
> > many
> > >> many books and articles.  I have read quite a few of those books.
> What I
> > >> said is what I said, and I wasn’t trying to ccomplish whatever you or
> > >> mathew c think I should have been. But without a doubt the so-called
> > >> creation of Israel has involved decades of assult on the Palestinians
> > who
> > >> lived there before the Jewish settlers came. It was as much an act of
> > >> destruction and theft in my view as an act of creation. In the same
> way
> > the
> > >> “creation” of the US required a destructive assault on indiginous
> > people.
> > >> Israel seems to me to follow the biblical paradigm of Zionism layed
> out
> > in
> > >> the legends of Joshua and later David. I think that is clear enough
> and
> > >> quite defensible as a proposition.
> > >>
> > >>  As far as I can tell most countries are acts of imagination  and
> > >> violence based on tilling and armies, they are a product of the
> > paradigm of
> > >> war . National borders and rules are usually a lot more arbitrary than
> > >> natural human self organizing and require leaders imposing taxes
> > through
> > >> violence. Since the advent of mass production and fossil fuels we
> have a
> > >> new paradigm that combines the economic predations of investment
> > capitalism
> > >> with the military power or imperial alliances. This is quickly
> > destroying
> > >> the biospheric stability of the planet.  Our imaginations could be put
> > to
> > >> better use. We are not bound to follow our path of self destruction by
> > >> anything other than unwillingness to face the problems  and imagine
> > >> solutions than are not reliant on war, poisons and ecological rape.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 7:49 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Joseph,
> > >> >
> > >> > Without distinctions, your generalities about all countries
> everywhere
> > >> and when are always correct.
> > >> > Yet say nothing substantive about the creation of Israel--or any
> other
> > >> country for that matter.
> > >> > And do little (or nothing) for discussion of all your Historic evils
> > >> but show us a nice, beautifully-expressed personal credo--open to all:
> > "the
> > >> heart of this holy path is to choose life, to love the great mystery
> of
> > >> being wih all the heart and all the mind and the very kernel of life
> we
> > >> have been given, and to treat others as we wish to be treated.”
> > >> Guess what. That is not a personal credo, Those are ideas from
> Judaism(
> > >> The Torah and Maimonedes) which I appreciate and try to honor in my
> > life.
> > >> >
> > >> > Mark
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:21 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
> > >> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> > >> > Annihilation is a loaded word. It sounds cruel and violent.
> Truthfully
> > >> though, a name or concept or form of government can be eliminated or
> > >> replaced without destroying human lives or poisoning the earth.
> Nations
> > and
> > >> religions have changed and died before with little or even benign
> > >> consequences. And those nations  that survived and rose to become
> “great
> > >> powers" have a pretty shitty track record to justify themselves.
> Imagine
> > >> all the people living life in peace.
> > >> > I don’t know exactly what Thomberi ( sounds a made up name) is
> > >> intending, whether tongue in cheek or weirdly sincere, but I think
> > matthew
> > >> c is wildly sentimentalizing how Israel came into being. As to what is
> > to
> > >> be done. It is a question for all of us, not just Israel. Settler
> > >> colonialism and its cruelties are embedded in most of the world.
> Western
> > >> civilization as configured has desertified vast parts of the globe,
> > moved
> > >> sane indiginous cultures into bantustans and is rapidly destroying the
> > >> diverse species upon which life as we know it exists, rapidly moving
> us
> > >> toward waves of mass destruction . As for me, yes i really am ready to
> > hand
> > >> over my land and the very concept of property to the tribal peoples of
> > >> north america. Would they want this mess, our mini-flags, banks and
> > >> fracking machines? I don’t know, but I could not be more serious about
> > my
> > >> acre of workspace , fruit trees, asparagus, maple trees, and stone
> > walls.
> > >> My whole life is about the effort to move myself and others toward an
> > >> ecologically sustainable life, and the biggest impediment to change is
> > the
> > >> settler colonialist warfare that continues from the ancient to the
> > modern
> > >> world, that turns from warlordism to nationalism  to imperial warfare.
> > What
> > >> Israel and the US and China and Russia and Brazil and Canada and so
> many
> > >> rapacious military dictatorships are expressing in this shared planet
> > is
> > >> varying forms of  sociopathic madness organized by  self destructive
> > >> dreams, egomania, and imaginary polities that have ravaged our common
> > sense
> > >> as animals, our friendliness as neighbors, our ability to choose life
> > above
> > >> what they have too offer. And what do they have to offer as their
> > >> civilization crumbles? Comfortable places to watch the world burn,
> > endless
> > >> entertaining air conditioned shitpiles, debt,  fat people eating big
> > juicy
> > >> hamburgers and an all too violent and real global annihilation, James
> > Bond
> > >> may or may not have lost his dick, but he stil has a license to kill.
> > >> >
> > >> >  Zionism is the same disease as the master race, manifest destiny,
> > >> salafism, pax romana, capitalism, militarism. Its origins can be read
> by
> > >> anyone. Joshua crosses into “ the promised land” to kill the sinful
> > >> Canaanites or make them into slaves to the chosen people.”Blessed is
> he
> > who
> > >> dashes thy little ones against a stone”. This fable has become the
> > script
> > >> for modern day Israel, just as some version of this script has written
> > so
> > >> much human history. It will script global suicide if we let it. If we
> > >> cannot prevent it.
> > >> >
> > >> > Zionism was never the remarkable part of Judaism, the heart of this
> > >> holy path is to choose life, to love the great mystery of being wih
> all
> > the
> > >> heart and all the mind and the very kernel of life we have been given,
> > and
> > >> to treat others as we wish to be treated.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > On Oct 13, 2021, at 4:14 PM, matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:mccissell at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Mach,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > So let me see. You seem to propose the annihilation of Israel, a
> > >> country
> > >> > > created whole cloth from ideas, dreams, stories and more by
> carving
> > >> out a
> > >> > > space for that community that had formed a nation but lacked a
> > state.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Ok. Two things (that I'll say) occur to me: What do you propose
> for
> > >> the
> > >> > > people? Do you have some... solution for them as well? Would it be
> > >> the same
> > >> > > for Arabic and Jewish citizens? What would it entail?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Next: If you (and others that share your view) are the descendent
> of
> > >> > > Europeans living in the Americas (or some other previously
> > >> > > colonized place), I suppose you are also ready to 'undo' your
> county
> > >> and
> > >> > > hand over your land to the indigenous communities. Or are you
> > writing
> > >> from
> > >> > > somewhere else, in which case we might talk about that place.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Criticizing the trespasses of any country or government is one
> > thing,
> > >> but
> > >> > > calling for its abolition is something else. The actions of the
> > >> Israeli
> > >> > > government have often been reprehensible or even criminal, but
> that
> > >> does
> > >> > > not justify your language, which would certainly find applause and
> > >> echoes
> > >> > > in a certain rising current in not only US political discourse but
> > >> more
> > >> > > widely.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'm responding not because I think your mind is likely to be
> changed
> > >> but
> > >> > > because I want you and others to know that in this open forum you
> > >> will find
> > >> > > voices that do not apathetically ignore your statements.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Ne Obliviscaris
> > >> > > Matthew Cissell
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:33 PM Mach Thomberi <
> > machthomberi at gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:machthomberi at gmail.com>>
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> No we wouldn't want that would we.  Deprive Israel water and
> > >> medicine.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> What would be marvelous.  Would be removing Israel from the map.
> > >> Cut it
> > >> > >> out and dispense it into the ether.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Then do likewise of our collective memory of Israel.
> > >> > >> On Oct 13, 2021 9:23 AM, "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net
> <mailto:
> > >> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>> I would not go so far as to cut Israelis off from medicine or
> > clean
> > >> water
> > >> > >>> as they have done to Gaza, but a cultural boycott is
> potentially a
> > >> way to
> > >> > >>> bring the debate into a more public sphere. We need equally to
> > >> confront
> > >> > >>> what so many in the western press and politics  have done on
> this
> > >> issue.
> > >> > >>> They  have supported  the insane idea that anyone who publicly
> > >> > >> criticizes
> > >> > >>> Israel’s abuse of Palestinians is doing so out of
> anti-semitism.
> > >> They
> > >> > >> are
> > >> > >>> labeled  anti-semitic even if they are Jews whose parents and
> > >> relatives
> > >> > >>> survived or died  in Nazi concentration camps.
> > >> > >>>  Sally Rooney said she would be honored to have her book
> > translated
> > >> to
> > >> > >>> Hebrew but will not work with a publisher who does not distance
> > >> > >> themselves
> > >> > >>> from Israel’s aparteid treatment of Palestinians.
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>>> On Oct 11, 2021, at 3:44 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> Why no comment?  This is a place for opinion.  As for me, I say
> > >> > >> Bravo!  I
> > >> > >>>> think Israel deserves full apartheid treatment right now.  And
> > too
> > >> many
> > >> > >>>> people are afraid to say so.   There!  I said it.
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> David Morris
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 3:25 PM Mark Kohut <
> mark.kohut at gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:mark.kohut at gmail.com>>
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney- <
> > >> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney->
> > >> > >>> allow-her-latest-novel-to-be-translated-into-hebrew/
> > >> > >>>>> --
> > >> > >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> > >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>> --
> > >> > >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> > >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> --
> > >> > >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> > >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >> --
> > >> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> > >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > > --
> > >> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> > >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> > >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>