Dune and psychedelic desert messiahs

[Joseph Tracy]

Very important point and it poses important questions about the contending messianic ideas in different relions: Judaism, Christianity with its roots in Phariseeic cosmology, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism etc. The most obvious question is how much do religious cult leaders engineer their power and their prophetic voices and how much do they use what is available to their immediate advantage. In the Dune story Paul’s primary power comes from foreknowledge and that is portrayed as a real supernatural power. The Bene Gesserit are not pleased with Jessica’s bearing of a male child, so how much control do they have? 
      In earth’s religious history it seems quite likely that Jesus was a powerful healer and prophet of a new social order. He never called himself the Son of God, that was a term used by the caesars of Rome. Did the religion that emerged from his life come from planning or contending religious claims to be the representatives of the spiritual force he represented? Not meaning to start religious arguments, not my point, but was Herbert representing the Bene Gesserit as shapers, did they really sew all these myths, or were they partly skilled adepts and partly con artists trying to stay in a position of power? I just think  that Herbert presentsThe Bene Gesserit’s actual control  as a bit more vague than their own fear inspiring claims.   
   
   

> On Oct 25, 2021, at 1:28 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Also, if we are to critique the novel and/or film seriously, we should never forget (as most DUNE readers seem to, but Herbert never did) that the book's messianic revolution is engineered, i.e. it is (or would/will be) the result of an elite, top-down, deadly violent, centuries-in-the-making CONSPIRACY by the Bene Gesserit.
> 
> Jerky
> 
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 12:41 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> Agree that this could be a valid literal interpretation, but how do you seperate visionary from hallucinatory or soul-manifesting( psychedelic)?  Also the book is more empatically trippy as regards the nature of spice and this is still loaded cultural territory for a movie. Part of the problem with Herbert’s story is the isolated “truth” of the messianic vision.  Here is a dark skinned culture whose eyes have turned blue from the use of spice and they seem to rely on scriptures rather than insight. Really?
> 
> Would a war killing billions really have a chance of bringing peace to the cosmos? Is this really the best “vision” of how cruelty and violence are ended?  To me the fable is fatally flawed by this hierarchy on many levels and  an understanding why and how it is flawed is its truest value.  
> 
> > On Oct 23, 2021, at 4:13 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com <mailto:igrlivingston at gmail.com>> wrote:d
> > 
> > Correct. The protagonist's visionary inclination is well established
> > considerably before his first contact with the psychoactive qualities of
> > the "spice". In fact, I don't recall any reference to hallucinatory
> > effects. That is imposed by trip-seeking viewers.
> > 
> > On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 1:09 PM Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com <mailto:jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> It does not rely on tripping.
> >> 
> >> On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 3:51 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com <mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Good to hear it’s not a dog.  Early reviews said it was either sublime or
> >>> an overwrought-yet empty mess.  Sounds like it relies on tripping?  THAT
> >>> could be a mess (usually is in film).
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks
> >>> DM
> >>> 
> >>> On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 3:44 PM Bruno <bruno.laze at gmail.com <mailto:bruno.laze at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Saw it yesterday as well. A shout-out to Villeneuve's fidelity to early
> >>>> sci-fi aesthetics.  Reminds me of John Harris and pre-90s book covers.
> >>>> Villeneuve shows much skill in making authorial, fringe ergotic sci-fi.
> >>>> What not to love when a genre goes artistic?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Space travel: spice. A hallucinogen. To travel light is to get rid of
> >>> brain
> >>>> patterns.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Le sam. 23 oct. 2021 à 12:50, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> a écrit
> >> :
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Went to see Dune last night, mostly Williams College kids attending,
> >>>>> needed some escapist nonsense. It was well done I thought, good
> >> acting,
> >>>>> good music and sound effects if slightly over the top with the big
> >>> drums.
> >>>>> Visually severe, engaging, ominous in story-appropriateriate ways. I
> >>>>> wondered if the whole heroic desert freedom fighters with Islamic
> >> style
> >>>>> might shake up the imagination of young watchers shaped by
> >> anti-Muslim
> >>>>> cultural atmosphere. Stayed quite close to the book, more condensed.
> >>> Not
> >>>>> sure visionary psychedelic messiahs leading desert rebels against the
> >>>>> exploitation of a cruel empire has serious relevance, but it could
> >> be a
> >>>> lot
> >>>>> worse. It is only half the first book.
> >>>>>  I thought Herbert made a big mistake killing off the ecologist
> >> when I
> >>>> re
> >>>>> read the book most of a year ago. I still think so, too central as a
> >>>>> redeeming theme.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I have an increasingly hard time with big Iron machines traveling
> >> light
> >>>>> years through space while people fight with swords.  We are so
> >> fucking
> >>>> far
> >>>>> from real space travel.
> >>>>> 
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