Umberto Eco - Ur Fascism

Wed Jan 5 16:13:06 UTC 2022

I agree whole-heartedly with Rich. AND—these two fellow are doing this in their SECOND LANGUAGE. You wanna hear two Germans debate Ukrainian politics in English on a list devoted to an American writer? Take that, Jonathan Franzen List!!!

—Quail

On 1/5/22, 10:34 AM, "Pynchon-l on behalf of rich" <pynchon-l-bounces at waste.org on behalf of richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:

    Martin, Thomas

    I have to say I find this discussion quite fascinating. I've read a fair
    bit of history of the region, but you both have shown to be more informed.
    My point such as it is is that even a cursory review highlights the
    complexity of history and its effects in today's world, particularly in
    Eastern Europe. Anyone who has read a bit more than newspaper columns will
    appreciate how the scars of WW2 play out in places under former Nazi
    occupation (France, Holland, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, etc.) and the grey
    areas around how people coped under brutal conditions.
    The west, but particularly in the US, cannot understand or get its head
    around such complexity. Nor do they want to, either. American myths are all
    based on good guys fighting bad guys. black and white issues (somewhat
    ironic considering the US appalling race issues). We just leave it to the
    experts to get on with it, no doubt in many unsavory ways.
    More generally, I think Russia gets credited for things because it fits
    into the narrative of how we perceive Russia behaves. It's like being an
    anonymous philanthropist who gives big gifts. future gifts of similar size
    will be attributed to the giver though many of the gifts did not come from
    that giver. This is not to downplay the dangers of Putin and the general
    right-facing trends politically emerging again.
    One must respect complexity. I wish there was more of it.

    rich

    On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:40 AM Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:

    > On 5. January 2022 at 10:42:56, Thomas Eckhardt (
    > huebschraeuber at protonmail.com) wrote:
    >
    > I think you underestimate their influence. And no, I did not ignore your
    > long post on Bandera etc. which I mostly agree with.
    >
    > How well do you know Ukraine to come to this assessment?
    >
    > Just asking, because I happen to do quite well, having spent a lot of time
    > there over the last 25 years, speaking the language fluently, having been
    > involved in two Maidan revolutions - which all lead to quite a different
    > assessment. And, by the way, that's why I care so much.
    >
    >
    >  For me, as well as
    > for some of his his followers, however, Bandera represents the Ukrainian
    > Nazi collaborators who took part in the Holocaust (whether Bandera
    > himself took part is beside the point).
    >
    > The term “collaborator” is wrong. “Collaboration” is usually understood as
    > voluntary cooperation with an occupying force in order to gain personal
    > profits from it. The OUN however considered themselves as “allies” of the
    > axis powers pursuing their own political interest and having cooperated
    > with them from the mid 1930s, bringing in their own organisational
    > structures and even fighters. One may argue, whether being “allies” is
    > morally better, but definitely this term is more correct than
    > “collaborators”. The OUN-B (Bandera’s branch) left this alliance shortly
    > after the German invasion.
    >
    > Regarding "some of his followers", I have explained in length how most of
    > them see him like a Ukrainian Che Guevara (with as little historic
    > accuracy), primarily associating him with Western Ukrainian anti Soviet
    > resistance from 1943/1944 - approx. 1949. Like in any other country there
    > are of course hard core ned nazis who may well see him for what he was, but
    > this group is very small, far smaller than comparable forces in Western
    > European countries like Germany (almost worst), France, …
    >
    >
    > Search the archives. Random points off the top of my head: The US
    > Army trained and armed the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion.
    >
    > First: Azov is not a “neo Nazi Battalion”. It is a volunteer unit formed by
    > neo nazis, however their political views was not the reason for quite a
    > number of people to join them. In 2014 they were one of the few units
    > opposing the Russian invasion that were properly armed and had proper
    > military commanders, so that one had a chance to make an impact and not end
    > up as cannon fodder as it would have been in the Ukrainian army at that
    > time (which was so poorly equipped that it could not even provide boots to
    > everyone, people went to the front in sneakers).
    >
    > Please refer to Andreas Umland’s excellent analysis [1, 2] for more.
    >
    > The sad truth is that the Ukrainian government depended on all the
    > different volunteer units. Without them the Russian forces would have taken
    > Mariupol and most likely cut Ukraine off from the Azov sea creating a land
    > connection to annexed Crimea. Hence US support for them at that time was
    > necessary and logical.
    >
    > In the mean time the volunteer units have lost their independence as they
    > were integrated into the army’s structures and put under army command. I
    > know that this fact has been vastly exploited using it as “proof” for neo
    > nazis in Ukraine’s army. From Ukraine’s perspective this step aimed at
    > sustaining the volunteer units’ military value while getting them under
    > control, avoiding “state in state” structures.
    >
    >
    > It is forbidden by
    > law to condemn Nazi collaborators like Stepan Bandera or Roman
    > Shukhevych, who have had streets and memorials named for them across
    > Ukraine.
    >
    > Really? Please show me that law. Spoiler: this is a fake.
    >
    >
    >
    > Much hinges on the question of who committed the
    > massacre on February 20, 2014. I recommmend Ivan Katchanovski on
    > this subject. This is a good starting point:
    >
    >
    > https://jordanrussiacenter.org/news/the-maidan-massacre-in-ukraine-revelations-from-trials-and-investigation/#.YbPsYy-B1hF
    >
    >
    > Katchanovski’s paper has been often cited by people following a “pro
    > Russian” narrative. However it has been widely contradicted, and his
    > theories are not generally accepted. However I’ll not dive into a
    > discussion on conspiracy theories around the Maidan snipers, even though
    > this could be appreciated as “Pynchonesque” by some 😎
    >
    >
    > Idefix? The neo-Nazi and "Commander of the Maidan" Andriy Parubiy is not
    > an important figure?
    >
    > Not of relevance. The fact that people from various political camps played
    > some roles in that context does not prove your point, mentioning them looks
    > anecdotic to me.
    > In particular over the years since 2014 I have seen how successfully
    > Ukraine’s struggle for freedom, self determination and democracy has been
    > delegitimised by completely exaggerated allegations of fascism. Absurdly,
    > parts of the European left have started solidarising with the proxy
    > “republics” created by Russia in the East claiming this to be an act of
    > “anti fascism” which is particularly ridiculous as in those entities Russia
    > has assembled a full collection of Russian neo nazis, orthodox religious
    > nationalists etc. (like e.g. Prizrak, Vostok, Rusich, Legion St Istvan, RNU
    > “Russian National Unity", Russian Orthodox Army) representing a proportion
    > of right-wing extremists in both their “armed forces” and “governments”
    > that Ukraine does not get anywhere near.
    >
    > And the worst: a vast group of “Ukrainian fascism critics” have never been
    > to that country, do not know anything about its history, culture and
    > present society, building their “knowledge” entirely on the media (a good
    > part of which originating from the “alternative” spectrum with unclear
    > origins, very successfully positioning itself as the better option than the
    > allegedly “controlled” “mainstream”).
    >
    > Anti fascism is common sense, not a religion. Unfortunately in Europe good
    > parts of the political left (which I generally consider myself a part of)
    > have never understood this and continue staging witch hunts believing
    > themselves not to be “controlled by THEM” - hey, that’s Pynchonesque again
    > - but actually following scenarios carefully created and staged by other …
    > governments). Anyone interested in the technologies involved in this may
    > take a look at Timothy Snyder’s excellent talk on propaganda from November
    > 2014 [3], all the stuff he mentions we can still observe on a daily basis.
    >
    >
    > References:
    >
    >    1.
    >
    > https://web.archive.org/web/20150223211906/http://int.hromadske.tv/articles/show/Azov_Battalion_Is_Not_Neo_Nazi_Some_People_Are
    >
    >    2.
    >
    > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283662345_The_Azov_case_Volunteer_Battalions_in_Ukraine
    >
    >    3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFObB6_naw
    >
    >
    > --
    > Dr. Martin Dietze
    > [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/]
    > 1. Vorsitzender
    > Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
    > [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/]
    > --
    > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
    >
    --
    Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l