NP - for the Ukraine discussion group

[Mark Kohut]

For what it is worth, I have had a shouting argument with a retired CIA guy
on the streets of my town......and been told on another street, in front of
the town hall and police station that "I should be arrested"....evidently
for refuting this Trumpist Marine at our local Cafe Society.....

trivial but real for me....

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 12:31 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> It just seems to me in considering Ukraine and Ukrainians as subject, the
> danger of provoking an unnecessary war  might be a primary consideration
> for them as such a war is likely to bring enormous damage to Ukrainians.
>  As far as a country that talks about others infinging on their vital
> interests, this is the common, widely used language of the US government.
> The sad truth is that we , certainly the US,  have not learned shit since
> 1945. We continue to invade and blockade, torture  and drone using the
> language of vital national interests.
>
>
> > On Jan 28, 2022, at 11:16 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Howdy, too.
> > While I most likely will not agree with him, I'm out anyway.
> > I really want to concentrate on providing first hand information on
> Ukraine
> > (maybe also debunking myths) and on insisting that the ones making
> decision
> > about Ukraine's future should really be its people.
> > I doubt that "geopolitical intellctualism" is beneficial, regardless
> which
> > direction it chooses, as long as Ukraine is treated as an object rather
> > than a subject.
> > The Mearsheimers of this world tend to do just that.
> >
> > Plase just try to imagine your country and your people being talked like
> > this: there's a crisis about you, you violate other countries' "vital
> > interests", you're supposed to remain in some other country's "sphere of
> > interests", and your vital interests (which you have a right to have,
> just
> > consider the KSCE agreement all super powers have signed) are in fact
> > considered irrelevant, you're actually being blamed to be manipulated by
> > THEM. What would your reaction be like?
> >
> > That's my perspective. If not the people are put first, if international
> > contracts are being ignored and the "weaker countries" just get a kick in
> > the bottom, then we haven't learned a shit since 1945.
> >
> > On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 at 16:19, matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Howdy,
> >>
> >> By following the exchange between the various parties on this subject, I
> >> have certainly been prompted to chase down some references.
> >>
> >> Then the YT algo stepped in and chucked a lecture at me. University of
> >> Chicago Professor John Mearsheimer gave a lecture back in 2015 called
> >> "UnCommon
> >> Core: The Causes and Consequences of the Ukraine Crisis". I think it has
> >> aged well; you can find other videos in which he talks on the subject.
> He
> >> is far from being a hawkish republican. In 40 minutes you get his
> message,
> >> and it's worth listening to.
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
> >>
> >> ciao
> >> mc otis
> >>
> >> <
> >>
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >>>
> >> Libre
> >> de virus. www.avast.com
> >> <
> >>
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> >>>
> >> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >> --
> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>