GRAYZONE, that black rag: Can't cut & paste

Sat Mar 18 19:57:10 UTC 2023

“All things are subject to interpretation; whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.” –Friedrich Nietzsche

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." (Mark Twain)

Call back when the ICC indicts Bush, Obama, Trump or Biden.

 I despise Trump. You are the one who loves and needs him in order to believe the lies the Democrats are selling. I think for myself, read widely,  and say what I think. I don’t,  as you falsely claim, indict anyone, which is a legal procedure. I am an artist, not a prosecutor.  The ICC has no jusidiction over Russia or the US or anyone else who didn’t sign up. 

 People I respect are complex and widely read. They are deeply compassionate and less interested in loyalty to empires or parties than in ethical and wise behavior in the world. I am personally far more impressed with people like Wendell Berry,  or Vandana Shiva, or Gary Snyder, or Barbara Kingsolver, or Peter Kropotkin or Michael Pollan, or Vanessa Beely, or Kathy Kelly  or Martin King, or Roger Waters or Leo Tolstoy than with  most political or social discourse, particulalry the party believerism you favor.  These are people who have lived their values,  and  have taken real risks to see the world beyond their cultural boundaries. Among journalists, I most favor those with a consistent moral worldview and accept that there are many differences of opinion among even the most sincere of them. Most of the journalists I respect refuse partisan politics as hypocritical propaganda for non existent values. They look at the evidence of behavior and action to determine values. They look at issues in their historic context and the loyalties, actions  and ties of a given speaker. 

Concerning the Ukraine, the bizarre and childish willingness to cast all skeptics of US/Nato policies as 'members of the Putin network’ as Dietze phrases it reminds me of Nazi propaganda about Jews and communists,  or like the Joe McCarthy  or Reagan or Schiff propaganda about Russia or China or communists. It is a continuation of the racist propaganda that allowed the extermination of indigenous peoples by European invaders. It ignores the 25 million Russians who died fighting and defeating Nazis because of an invasion of European fascist militarists who invaded Russia through the Ukraine and who very logically see the military assault on the Russian culture of the Donbass as an existential threat. It ignores the years of warnings against eastward NATO expansion by US experts and by Putin and the promises made by the US secretary of State at the time of Gorbachev.  It is a shallow habit of mind that refuses the challenge of civil discourse and applies disparaging labels to those who disagree or seek a more humane, ecologically sound and complex view of the issues facing humans.  It throws its own pundits and truth tellers under the bus when they say the wrong thing or expose unflattering facts, it silently approves of the muder and torture of those it regards as enemies .  It cannot see the mountain of crimes of its own ideology  or pull the stick from its own eye but looks for motes in the eyes of the unorthodox and resistors, turns disappearing molehils in China and Iran, Iraq and Libya into mountainous plots to destroy the west. It never acknowledges Cuban doctors and emergency workers going to the poorest areas like the current earthquake zones or serving the poor in Latin America. It cannot see the simple humanity and compassion behind such acts when such acts don’t come from its approved humans. 
  When I write in the reader response sections in the  Consortium or other news sites I frequently talk about the ecological problems that are bigger than political issues and that need to be faced by China and Russia as much as the western capitalists. I see this kind of nuance from many readers and responders. Many I respect are critical of the Russian invasion, but admit it was far from unprovoked. The journalism I respect is not some ideologically unified network of Putinists. It is much bigger and full of its own internal disputes. Vanessa Beely excoriates Hamas for their alignment with the US backed groups in Syria. The power of Max Blumenthal’s Goliath is not historic facts marshalled to prove historic truths, though that is a component. The real power is in his interviews with Netanyahu government officials and their own racist language and support for extermination of Palestinians. Violence begets violence and the place to end this cycle is in our own hearts and our own nations and goals. Hypocrisy and self interest are part of the world and part of ouselves and labels and ideological purity obscure the real solutions with purges, wars, censorship and self righteousness. We all must struggle with these things to find solid ground where we can live with truth and participate in civic discourse with sincerity.

“If only there were vile people ... committing evil deeds, and if it were only necessary to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them,” Solzhenitsyn wrote. “But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”                                                                                              Alexander Solzhenitsyn

> On Mar 18, 2023, at 12:46 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Joseph—
> 
> ICC on Putin’s war crimes. All those kidnapped children. Give me 1) the rationalized conspiracy explanation—of the ICC, which the US, as you know,  does not acknowledge it because the US has been bad and doesn’t want judged. 2) your usual whataboutism indicting Ukraine or the US or both. 
> 
> Tell me again about chemical use not by Syria in Syria and the White Helmets. 
> 
> When does being wrong ever change a thought? You are the most Trump-like person I’ve ever interacted with. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 18, 2023, at 12:32 PM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you for confirming what I wrote earlier today. People considering
>> others as "experts" if - and mainly because! - they fit into their
>> pre-existing world views.
>> 
>>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 17:27, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mcarthyist Crap and  name-calling. The maistream media constantly
>>> publishes conspiracy theories as news and gets caught. WMDs, Trump
>>> controlled by Kremlin, vaccines prevent Covid and are safe, Nordstream
>>> blown up by Russia, Russia reduced to fighting with shovels, no aggression
>>> by Ukraine government, the Biden laptop was a classic Russian operation,
>>> the Steele dossier, ...
>>>  Ray Mcgovern is an expert in Russia and was in CIA’s Russia bureau.
>>> Scott Ritter negotiated nuclear arms treaties with them, and was absolutely
>>> right about WMDs in Iraq. Sachs worked for the government of post Soviet
>>> Russia as an economic advisor, also in Poland, Slovenia, and Estonia.
>>> Steven Cohen appeared on the Grayzone and and was a source on Ukraine  and
>>> Russia there  until his death. He  had a Phd in Russia studies, was a
>>> friend of Gorbachev. So you are just lying about “no expertise”. Show me
>>> Zelensky’s "expertise" learned while pretending to play a piano with his
>>> cock on Ukrainian TV. How can you take yourself seriously.
>>> 
>>> On Mar 18, 2023, at 6:59 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, it *does* matter, who wrote the stuff you're sharing here. Most of
>>> the names you mention are no experts on Eastern Europe but rather (often:
>>> self-proclaimed) "experts" on "geo politics", known for both their pro
>>> Putin stance and sharing conspiracy theories. Outlets like the Greyzone are
>>> known for the same.
>>> 
>>> Katchanovski is somewhat different. He has become the anti-Western,
>>> Ukraine conspiracy theory fans' poster boy after publishing an article
>>> laying out his theories on the Maidan shootings in February 2014 - an
>>> article that had not undergone any peer reviews, hence of no scientific
>>> relevance, and would most appropriately be classified as a "blog". There's
>>> nothing bad about this per se, but Katchanovski has never *proven*
>>> anything. His theories are nothing more than theories, and they haven't
>>> been adopted (or taken terribly seriously) by the community. However
>>> *because* he shares what anti Westerners and conspiracy theorists had
>>> "known" right from the start, his article and all the comments and notes he
>>> has published on this since then have been taken by these people as "proof"
>>> - which they aren't.
>>> 
>>> Another comment (rant) on "geo politics" which has become kind of a
>>> religion to some. "Geo political" analysis is very convenient, because you
>>> don't need to know anything about the particular conflict, crisis etc. you
>>> want to "analyse": the basic pattern behind "geo politics" (i.e. there are
>>> the super powers, they have their interests, and everything can be
>>> explained by this) allow you to write stuff that (a) sounds good, (b) seems
>>> logical and (c) will guarantee you the community's applause and agreement.
>>> 
>>> There's lots of these "experts" on "geo politics" (take Pablo Escobar for
>>> instance) who clearly haben't got the slightest clue about Ukraine, what
>>> has happened there and what is still happening there, and who still keep
>>> publishing about it, being cited and shared by others. And what these
>>> people publish will pop up in publications like "The Greyzone" (supposedly
>>> "left"), the UNZ Review (alt-right, anti-semitic), The Saker (openly pro
>>> Putin) etc. These publications form a network where left and right hold
>>> hands - that's what some people call "Third Position".
>>> 
>>> It is also worthwhile looking up more information about authors. A good
>>> number of those you mentioned not only hold rather controversial positions,
>>> they also are part of Putin's networks - something you can rather easily
>>> identify when such names pop up in Putin's "Valdai Discussion Club" (to
>>> which *only* people with "friendly" positions are invited), or publish in
>>> Putin's propaganda outlet "Russia Today" on a regular basis.
>>> 
>>> "Alternative media" are a business model, and one of their key elements
>>> are conspiracy theories: they are a key part of these outlets' Loyalty
>>> business model, telling customers that "mainstream media" don't tell the
>>> "whole truth" and only in "alternative media" people learn what's really
>>> going on. Conspiracy theories prove themselves. Once people have started
>>> believing in them they will rigorously reject any information proving them
>>> wrong - and generate the revenue keeping these outlets alive.
>>> 
>>> Long story short: sources *do matter*. Believers will however continue
>>> believing once they have entered the infinite conspiracy theory feedback
>>> loop.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> m.
>>> 
>>> P.S.: I seem to remember you were unhappy about me replying to off-topic,
>>> non-Pynchon posts here. This problem can be solved: just stop posting
>>> off-topic contents others cannot stay silent about.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 02:43, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> When Kohut  or Morris treat me with some respect I will do likewise. But
>>>> I never use honorifics. I don’t remember being called Mr. Tracy by anyone
>>>> on the list, so don’t hold your breath, Martin.
>>>> 
>>>> There are many journalists and writers like those of media outlets like
>>>> Consortium News, the Grayzone, Scheerpost, Resistance Radio, the Scott
>>>> Horton Show, Ray McGovern’s podcast,  along with individual writers like
>>>> Jeffrey Sachs, Oliver Stone, Julian Assange, Ed Snowden, Scott Ritter,
>>>> Seymour Hersch, Jeff Gerth, Doug McGregor, or Matt Taibbi  who question the
>>>> US government via actual research and facts and very persuasive logic.
>>>> Calling these regularly published writers and former insiders "Putin’s
>>>> mouthpiece" is a truly lame and baseless accusation, Joe McCarthy would be
>>>> proud.  How about truth-tellers who got it right on several issues while
>>>> Kohut and Morris, whose mail I rarely open, got it dead wrong. How about
>>>> people who have risked their lives to tell the truth. Did a single one of
>>>> you read the article or have a challenge for any fact reported by the
>>>> Grayzone writers or Consortium News.
>>>> There were 2 incidents of mass killing in the Maidan Coup involving
>>>> about 110 people murdered. These crimes were never investigated to this
>>>> day. The Canadian writer, academic, Ivan Katchanovski,  did a deep dive
>>>> into the question and his thoroughly documented report initially received
>>>> with enthusiasm, and supported by the likes of Jeffrey Sachs went
>>>> unpublished with no challenge to his research.  All you can think to do is
>>>> call names at a publisher. Pathetic.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 15, 2023, at 3:01 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 at 05:58, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:
>>>> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>>>>> Seems like Kohut uses artificial intelligence on a regular basis.
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Mr. Kohut" would be more appropriate. Does this rudeness happen to
>>>> have any connection to the "alternative media" you seem to consume on a
>>>> regular basis?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Martin (by the way I'm fine with you addressing me as "Martin"; if you
>>>> don't like this, "Dr. Dietze" will do)
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dr. Martin Dietze
>>>>> [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/
>>>>> ]
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
>>>>> Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
>>>>> [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <
>>>> http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/>]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
>>>>> [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com <
>>>> https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/>]
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Dr. Martin Dietze
>>> [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/]
>>> 
>>> 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
>>> Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
>>> [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/]
>>> 
>>> Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
>>> [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dr. Martin Dietze
>> [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/]
>> 
>> 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
>> Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
>> [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/]
>> 
>> Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
>> [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com]
>> --
>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l