GRAYZONE, that black rag: Can't cut & paste

Mon Mar 20 16:04:07 UTC 2023

Trolls are people without arguments who rely on name calling and discrediting any information that undermines their arguments or positions on a topic. They are often connected to a large or popular party or social group and even their insults tend to be the standard insults of that group. They rarely put forth authentic independent ideas with logical arguments and rely heavily on some self assigned sense of authority. Their main goal is to hurt, not to persuade,

   When I started participating in the Pynchon List, the written work of Pynchon was the prime topic. Politial implications of the work could be exceptionally dicey but there was a balance of voices. Over the years many have left and it is my sense that a primary reason is the ever growing drift into topics that are not connected to Pynchon’s writing. Later group readings began to peter out unfinished. Off topic arguments pushed people away. It is to some degree natural that larger social and political issues will be included since these have powerful roles in Pynchon’s satiric output, but civility allows these to be arguments about values , history and ideas rather than personal attacks.

I would be happy to keep my social and political views restricted to the theoretical common ground of the work of TRP, but at this time I am refusing to turn over the list as a venue for Neoliberal support for the latest imperial proxy war. This is  an argument that may deserve exploration but has no relation to the work of Pynchon and no postivive role in building a larger community of shared interest.  At this time I refuse to remain silent without a counter argument and, whether wise or not, not only with counter arguments and facts but with direct confrontation of 2 list members whose behavior I am not alone in regarding as obnoxious, bullying and insulting. These are Davd Morris, and Mark Kohut. Every time I have tried to restart  exchanges with David or Mark with civil ground rules they have violated them with personal insults. I am no longer willing to try unil they take  responsibility for their behavior. I won’t be holding my breath but you never know.

For now I keep making my arguments despite many insults  and some really lame Joe McCarthy style accusations, and I occasionally take aim at those who attack me. Show me civility and I will do the same, show me incivility and reap what you sow.  

> On Mar 19, 2023, at 6:27 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> https://neurosciencenews.com/drk-triad-trolling-18825/amp/ <https://neurosciencenews.com/drk-triad-trolling-18825/amp/>
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> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886914000324 <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886914000324>
> “ two online studies (total N = 1215), respondents completed personality inventories and a survey of their Internet commenting styles. Overall, strong positive associations emerged among online commenting frequency, trolling enjoyment, and troll identity, pointing to a common construct underlying the measures. Both studies revealed similar patterns of relations between trolling and the Dark Tetrad of personality: trolling correlated positively with sadism <https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/sadism>, psychopathy <https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/psychopathy>, and Machiavellianism.”
> 
> “ Of all personality measures, sadism <https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/sadism> showed the most robust associations with trolling and, importantly, the relationship was specific to trolling behavior. Enjoyment of other online activities, such as chatting and debating, was unrelated to sadism. Thus cyber-trolling appears to be an Internet manifestation of everyday sadism.”
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> On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 10:40 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Mar 18, 2023, at 6:59 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com <mailto:mdietze at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, it does matter, who wrote the stuff you're sharing here. Most of the names you mention are no experts on Eastern Europe but rather (often: self-proclaimed) "experts" on "geo politics", known for both their pro Putin stance and sharing conspiracy theories. Outlets like the Greyzone are known for the same.
> > 
> > Katchanovski is somewhat different. He has become the anti-Western, Ukraine conspiracy theory fans' poster boy after publishing an article laying out his theories on the Maidan shootings in February 2014 - an article that had not undergone any peer reviews, hence of no scientific relevance, and would most appropriately be classified as a "blog". There's nothing bad about this per se, but Katchanovski has never proven anything. His theories are nothing more than theories, and they haven't been adopted (or taken terribly seriously) by the community. However because he shares what anti Westerners and conspiracy theorists had "known" right from the start, his article and all the comments and notes he has published on this since then have been taken by these people as "proof" - which they aren't. 
>  " In the final months of 2022, Katchanovski submitted a new investigation on the Maidan massacre to a prominent social sciences journal. Initially accepted <https://twitter.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1611196287122116609 <https://twitter.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1611196287122116609>> with minor revisions after extensive peer review, the publication’s editor effusively praised the work in a lengthy private note. They said the paper was “exceptional in many ways,” and offered “solid” evidence in support of its conclusions. The reviewers concurred with this judgment.”      
>                        Newly published Grayzone article( the one I posted)
>   So you are a little behind on the issue here, Martin, referring to an earlier article. I assume you didn’t actually read the article I posted, but want to discredit it anyway. It was peer reviewed, contrary to your statement. 
> 
> > 
> > Another comment (rant) on "geo politics" which has become kind of a religion to some. "Geo political" analysis is very convenient, because you don't need to know anything about the particular conflict, crisis etc. you want to "analyse": the basic pattern behind "geo politics" (i.e. there are the super powers, they have their interests, and everything can be explained by this) allow you to write stuff that (a) sounds good, (b) seems logical and (c) will guarantee you the community's applause and agreement.
> > 
> > There's lots of these "experts" on "geo politics" (take Pablo Escobar for instance) who clearly haben't got the slightest clue about Ukraine, what has happened there and what is still happening there, and who still keep publishing about it, being cited and shared by others.
> Pablo Escobar was the head of the Medellin Columbian Drug Cartel. I guess maybe that is why he “haben't got the slightest clue about Ukraine”. That and the fact that he is in a grave with a bullet through his brain.
> > And what these people publish will pop up in publications like "The Greyzone" (supposedly "left"), the UNZ Review (alt-right, anti-semitic), The Saker (openly pro Putin) etc. These publications form a network where left and right hold hands - that's what some people call "Third Position".
> > 
> > It is also worthwhile looking up more information about authors. A good number of those you mentioned not only hold rather controversial positions, they also are part of Putin's networks - something you can rather easily identify when such names pop up in Putin's "Valdai Discussion Club" (to which only people with "friendly" positions are invited), or publish in Putin's propaganda outlet "Russia Today" on a regular basis. 
> 
> Why would a Pynchon reader be worried about “controversial opinions”? Have you ever actually said anything about Pynchon on this list? Have you read his work? I hate to break it to you , but there are some controversial ideas being expressed in it.  
> > 
> > "Alternative media" are a business model, and one of their key elements are conspiracy theories: they are a key part of these outlets' Loyalty business model, telling customers that "mainstream media" don't tell the "whole truth" and only in "alternative media" people learn what's really going on. Conspiracy theories prove themselves. Once people have started believing in them they will rigorously reject any information proving them wrong - and generate the revenue keeping these outlets alive. 
> This seems a perfect description of your unwillingness to acknowledge, let alone honestly consider information that contradicts your narrative  on Ukraine or the trustworthiness of commercial media with many ties to the Government and CIA as reported by Alan McLeod, Matt Taibbi and others.
> > 
> > Long story short: sources do matter. Believers will however continue believing once they have entered the infinite conspiracy theory feedback loop.
> OK so sources Matter, but what does that mean, who has the more dubious sources? As I said earlier I recently posted on the p site an article by Patrick Lawrence commenting on the Gerth piece about the the corruption of the press via the ludicrous Russiagate story. In it he mentions as background that in 1977 Carl Bernstein published in the Rolling Stone his finding that there were over 400 CIA assets working in US media. That was 1977, the numbers today are staggering and CIA controlled media are throughout the globe. Today we regulalrly find both CIA and FBI direct censorship in major social media and we find  that ex CIA, FBI  and ex Mossad are a major part of the staff of these social media. Ex military and CIA also show up on TV news often with opinions on military matters but no disclosure of their investments in the arms industry.  Of course it is hard to know any this when one has firmly adopted the blind deaf and dumb monkey posture. 
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > m.
> > 
> > P.S.: I seem to remember you were unhappy about me replying to off-topic, non-Pynchon posts here. This problem can be solved: just stop posting off-topic contents others cannot stay silent about.
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 02:43, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>>> wrote:
> > When Kohut  or Morris treat me with some respect I will do likewise. But I never use honorifics. I don’t remember being called Mr. Tracy by anyone on the list, so don’t hold your breath, Martin. 
> > 
> > There are many journalists and writers like those of media outlets like Consortium News, the Grayzone, Scheerpost, Resistance Radio, the Scott Horton Show, Ray McGovern’s podcast,  along with individual writers like  Jeffrey Sachs, Oliver Stone, Julian Assange, Ed Snowden, Scott Ritter, Seymour Hersch, Jeff Gerth, Doug McGregor, or Matt Taibbi  who question the US government via actual research and facts and very persuasive logic. Calling these regularly published writers and former insiders "Putin’s mouthpiece" is a truly lame and baseless accusation, Joe McCarthy would be proud.  How about truth-tellers who got it right on several issues while Kohut and Morris, whose mail I rarely open, got it dead wrong. How about people who have risked their lives to tell the truth. Did a single one of you read the article or have a challenge for any fact reported by the Grayzone writers or Consortium News.
> >   There were 2 incidents of mass killing in the Maidan Coup involving about 110 people murdered. These crimes were never investigated to this day. The Canadian writer, academic, Ivan Katchanovski,  did a deep dive into the question and his thoroughly documented report initially received with enthusiasm, and supported by the likes of Jeffrey Sachs went unpublished with no challenge to his research.  All you can think to do is call names at a publisher. Pathetic. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > On Mar 15, 2023, at 3:01 AM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com <mailto:mdietze at gmail.com> <mailto:mdietze at gmail.com <mailto:mdietze at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 at 05:58, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>>>> wrote:
> > > Seems like Kohut uses artificial intelligence on a regular basis. 
> > > 
> > > "Mr. Kohut" would be more appropriate. Does this rudeness happen to have any connection to the "alternative media" you seem to consume on a regular basis?
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > 
> > > Martin (by the way I'm fine with you addressing me as "Martin"; if you don't like this, "Dr. Dietze" will do)
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Dr. Martin Dietze
> > > [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/> <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/>> <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/> <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/>>>]
> > > 
> > > 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
> > > Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
> > > [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/> <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/>> <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/> <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/>>>]
> > > 
> > > Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
> > > [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/> <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/ <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/>> <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/ <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/> <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/ <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/>>>]
> > 
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l> <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>>
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Dr. Martin Dietze
> > [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/> <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/>>]
> > 
> > 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
> > Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
> > [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/> <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/>>]
> > 
> > Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
> > [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/> <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/ <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/>>]
> 
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>