GRAYZONE, that black rag: Can't cut & paste

[Joseph Tracy]

Your pain is no greater than the people of the Donbass who have been shelled by The Ukrainian army  for years before the current Russian intervention and who continue to be assulted now, often in places of no military value. Human feelings are the same everywhere as life is precious to all people.  Before Russia crossed the border it was you who called for a war with Russia to recover Crimea and the insubordinate  Donbass and now that war has come with tons of weapons going to Ukraine and as I predicted the Ukrainians are suffering most. But letting the Minsk accords stand or be renewed as a basis for negotiation was refused by Ukraine and the Nato allies.    

As to who has kept this topic alive that is obvious from the number of posts about it from Mark, David and yourself compared to my total ouput on the topic. So as I have made clear I am perfectly willing to leave this topic alone but will probably not do so if others continue. And you are not the one who will decide when I have a place to speak in a group I have been far more of an active participant in than you are or ever were. Trying to turn my arguments in answer to the statements and arguments of others into some kind of emotional abuse is a harsh assumption.   I have loved ones in the military, and I see not only them but a whole planet at risk from US militarism and nuclear powers at war. It is not just Ukrainians who are at risk. But if you have loved ones in Ukraine I’d say do what you can to help them get out. Life is better than imaginary national boundaries.
  Our feelings and ideas  really have no influence on how this shameful war will go and what will happen in Ukraine, or, for that matter in the growing global war with China and Russia and their many economic partners.   Russia has the military strength, money , allies and will to prevent a NATO base in Ukraine and to insure that the current lines are made secure from the Ukrainian military. Nato in Ukraine is quite reasonably seen by Russia as an existential threat and the areas that are more culturally Russian will continue to be allied with and protected by Russia. Nothing else appears at all likely to me. It’s over and its time for Zelensky to negotiate or face ever growing losses. I do not believe that Russia and China will save the earth from human greed and violence, but a more even balance of power is inevitable and probably an improvement  if we do not succumb to nuclear war under the delusion that this will somehow salvage the Anglo empire. The US has been a bloody self interested imperial force since its beginning, and the sooner that ends the better.  We should attend to our own problems within our own territory, much of which should be returned to the tribal peoples of this continent. I am not naive enough to believe that will happen. What will happen is ever growing economic, political and ecological chaos.  You reap what you sow. 

I think I will leave participation on the list for some weeks to give everyone who wants it a chance for the last word. Will that end this? Will anything end  or change? Will I change my mind and look for a friendlier place? I don’t know. I am not much interested in Slow Learner and have been unable to get a library copy. Anyway I think once was enough for me and my reading is going in very different directions. 
  
    

> On Mar 20, 2023, at 3:22 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Joseph never even answers my simple new questions, such as about all the countries condemning Russia 
> nor about the ICC's condemnation, which he and others are quick to use to condemn the US---which deserved it in lots of incidents
> but, as the great second line of GR goes, "it has happened before but there is nothing like it now". 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 3:12 PM Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com <mailto:mdietze at gmail.com>> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 at 17:05, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> 
> > but at this time I am refusing to turn over the list as a venue for
> > Neoliberal support for the latest imperial proxy war
> 
> 
> What you call an "imperial proxy war" (meaning, as I gather, that the
> "empire" has to be the US rather than Russia which is literally and
> continuously raping Ukraine) is somethiing affecting my very familiy.
> 
> I have not subscribed to this list to lead fruitless debates on this. But,
> really, if anyone has a *legitimiate right* to speak up (and sometimes even
> smotionally so) when this topic touches down here, that's most likely not
> you.
> 
> Mark, who you blame for treating you with a lack of respect, is of
> Ukrainian origin by the way.
> 
> Rather than provoking people who have been under significant emotional
> stress for the last 13 months with your beliefs on who is really to blame,
> you may just keep them to yourself and spare all not involved in this some
> offtopic contents.
> 
> Nuff said.
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Martin Dietze
> [https://www.martins-braindumps.de/ <https://www.martins-braindumps.de/>]
> 
> 1. Vorsitzender - Deutsch-Ukrainischer Kulturverein e.V.
> Голова - Німецько-Українське Товариство Культури
> [http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/ <http://www.deutsch-ukrainischer-kulturverein.de/>]
> 
> Redakteur / Редактор - Karpaty Lviv Nachrichten
> [https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com <https://karpaty-lviv-nachrichten.com/>]
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>