The Main Scientist behind MK-Ultra - a book recommendation

[Mark Kohut]

Thanks again for all of this interesting history and detail (and smart
speculating).

I will only pick a nit. I think Pynchon would have heard about 'heroin" and
other substances out there"
as he learned and read some famous works of literature. De Quincy,
Burroughs' JUNKY (of the mid-fifties)
and others.

On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 6:36 AM matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Thomas,
>
>   Glad to help remind you. The list that Kinzer has in his book onGottlieb
> is staggering. Silly me. I thought, "Yeah, one or two unethical professors
> or Doctors could get involved." Oh, sweet naivete.
>
>    Just to provide a counterpoint to the idea that he "picked up something
> in the air". In the Kinzer book about Gottlieb, he writes that for a long
> time Kesey didn't believe Ginsberg about the CIA being behind the LSD;
> sadly, there is no date given for when that conversation transpired.
> However,the following sentence makes it clear that it occurred before the
> Church Committee. "Once the existence of MK-ULTRA was revealed in the
> 1970's, he [Kesey] realized that Ginsberg was right" pg190). So Ginsberg
> knew before the Committee blew the lid off it all. How and when would be
> interesting to know.
>           And it's understandable that even Kesey couldn't believe it as
> that was a time before the now famous acronym (thank you, Tom Clancy?) was
> so widely recognized. Also, people believed doctors back then in a way that
> we don't now. Check the bit on Whitey Bulger in the book, it could almost
> make you feel sorry for the guy. He really thought they were giving him
> something for research. Later, when he found out the truth, he swore he'd
> kill the Dr. But that was one crime he didn't get to commit. And let me
> just finish this part with a comment on discretion. Although much of what
> happened during MK-Ultra was not exactly discreet, people did keep quiet.
> One guy, at least, that was about to talk, was made permanently quiet. But
> most of those Dr's and CIA sociopaths were keeping quiet at first because
> it was a fight against the Ruskies (later because they were all
> criminally responsible for horrendous crimes.) REDS! "Keep mum, she's not
> dumb" was still in the air. Nobody was taking selfies of patients or
> prisoners (or the elephant) when they were whacked on Alice D. and getting
> their brains/ psyches prodded and tortured.
>
>   And one more angle to take on the question of whether TP knew or had
> heard about LSD Dr's dosing suburban types (and an elephant). Wouldn't you
> expect to see that turn up in some of his short stories? And let me give
> some applause to Mr. Bailey's ongoing analysis of the early stories (sorry
> I don't have time to respond to those posts). I mean, you're a young
> aspiring writer and you hear a crazy rumour/ story, wouldn't you use that?
> And just to tag one more thing on here. By his own admission in the Intro.
> to SL, TP clearly says that his early cannabis humour was more talk than
> real smoke; it simply was not ubiquitous in the way that it is today or was
> even in the 1980's, for example. He likely hadn't even heard very much
> about heroin or other substances that were certainly out there, but not as
> present and available as they are today. Of course, that is a very sad
> evolution to see occur.
>
> Keep well, Thomas.
>
> Ciao
> mc otis
>
>
> On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 8:34 PM Hübschräuber <
> huebschraeuber at protonmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I knew about Wolff and the Human Ecology Fund but did not remember that
> > this was in Cornell. It increases the possibility that Pynchon picked up
> > something in the air (rumours, hearsay, whispered conversations in the
> > hallways) rather than being privy to beyond top secret information, I'd
> > say. Thank you.
> >
> > Sicher versendet mit Proton Mail <https://proton.me/>.
> >
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um
> > 16:34:
> >
> > who know, maybe Pynchon figured out if the US gov't was willing to use
> LSD
> > and other such things to control enemy populations that it would have no
> > problem using such techniques on its own populations, Cornell in the 50s
> > being such an example:
> >
> >
> >
> https://ahrp.org/1953-dr-wolff-and-dr-hinkle-investigate-communist-brainwashing/
> >
> > Wolff proposed a partnership with the CIA aimed at mastering the
> > techniques for gaining control over human beings’ thought patterns and
> > behavior patterns. Drs. Wolff and Hinkle obtained permission from
> Cornell’s
> > President and high University officials to conduct these experiments at
> > Cornell on behalf of the CIA. They continued to test *“secret drugs and
> > various brain damaging procedures”* on unwitting patients.
> >
> > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 5:39 PM Thomas Eckhardt via Pynchon-l <
> > pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks, not much to argue here. I take the opportunity to state my
> >> arguments more precisely
> >>
> >>
> >> > Nazi doctors are a different story. None of the doctors
> >> > involved in the LSD testing in the US MK-Ultra were former Nazi's or
> >> > even German.
> >>
> >> My point is that there is a direct line between the mescaline
> >> experiments in Nazi concentration camps to mescaline and LSD testing in
> >> MKULTRA. Which happens to be also what the author of the book you
> >> recommended wrote:
> >>
> >> "[Scientists at Fort Detrick] spent many hours questioning German
> >> scientists about mescaline experiments that had been performed on
> >> prisoners at the Dachau concentration camp. (...) Gottlieb read piles of
> >> reports on these experiments." (59)
> >>
> >> L. Wilson Greene, technical director of the Chemical and Radiological
> >> Laboratories at Edgewood Arsenal wrote his "Psychochemical Warfare: A
> >> New Concept of War" which "concluded with a strong recommendation that
> >> the government begin systematically testing LSD, mescaline, and sixty
> >> other mind-altering compounds that might be weaponized for use against
> >> enemy populations." (36)
> >>
> >> Hilarius, of course, remembers working with new drugs to induce insanity
> >> in Buchenwald (COL49, Perennial Classics, 112).
> >>
> >> (I also note in passing that on p. 117 the program to test LSD on
> >> suburban housewives is suddenly Hilarius' program which he has broadened
> >> "to include husbands" like Mucho.)
> >>
> >> > It is quite a leap to think that because /some/ people
> >> > were aware of German scientists in the US that they would also know
> >> > about the attempt to get Blome into the US, which did not finally
> >> > happen. That includes TP.
> >>
> >> My argument does not hinge on Blome. They got Strughold and Schreiber in
> >> the US and quite a few more. See Linda Hunt, "Secret Agenda", or:
> >>
> >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/08/98078/
> >>
> >> All in all, more than 1,600 Nazi scientists were shipped to the US.
> >>
> >> > And allow me to clarify something: I didn't mean to minimize
> >> > Hilarius.
> >>
> >> No worries. I didn't think you did.
> >>
> >> > In fact, I see this as part of an important trend through TP's
> >> > work, namely his clear targeting of anti-semiticism and racism. (This
> >> is
> >> > likely in part because of his closeness to the Meyerhof family with
> >> whom
> >> > he spent much time.) TP's portrayal is a grotesque ridicule of
> >> Hilarius.
> >> > And lest we forget, Hilarius is a dentist - not one of TP's favourite
> >> > professionals. The satirical treatment targets Hilarius and is meant
> to
> >> > do what satire does. Levitas does not mean one takes things lightly.
> >> > Look at the humour in /The Master and Marguerita/.
> >>
> >> This is my reading as well. I particularly like two aspects that have
> >> nothing to do what we are discussing: That Hilarius is "put in charge of
> >> faces", and his discussion of Freudian and Jungian concepts of the
> >> subconscious.
> >>
> >> > As I see it the two camps presented in this email chain are: my idea
> >> > that TP created the character of Hilarius without knowing about Blome
> >> or
> >> > Paperclip, it is a product of his own authorial project and his
> >> > particular habitus; the other view appears to be that in order to
> >> create
> >> > Hilarius he must have known somehow about these very top secret
> affairs.
> >>
> >> Yes. I don't think he *must* have known, however, but believe it to be
> >> likely. Granted, I may have occasionally overstated my point.
> >>
> >> > It is not impossible that TP was given such information, but it is
> >> > highly unlikely and therefore rather implausible. You wrote: "It
> should
> >> > have been impossible for him to even speculate that this kind of war
> >> > criminal was allowed to live in the US, no?" Not at all. In fact, this
> >> > is where we differ.
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >> > I believe that writers do come up with things, and
> >> > they are sometimes true. Look at E.A. Poe's /Eureka/, in which he puts
> >> > forth an idea very similar to the Big Bang theory. Did he have some
> >> > prior knowledge? No, he was being imaginative and creative. Dreaming
> up
> >> > a dentist who is a Nazi war criminal that gives LSD to his patients
> >> > would have been easier for TP to do than obtain the information you
> >> > speculate that he had.
> >>
> >> Which is perfectly comprehensible.
> >>
> >> > It is difficult to determine where an artist has borrowed and recycled
> >> > or where they have spun from strands of dreams. Clearly, TP has done a
> >> > titanic amount of research. But is it not to his greater credit to
> >> > postulate that he thought up Hilarius without knowing about Blome,
> >> > Paperclip &/or MK-Ultra? Of course, I'm not here to convince you of
> >> that
> >> > or anything else. Proselytizing rarely works. Just sharing my view.
> >>
> >> A respectful debate is always worthwhile. It is instructive, fun, and
> >> hopefully helps to keep Alzheimer's away.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Thomas
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>
> >
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>