The Main Scientist behind MK-Ultra - a book recommendation

[Mark Kohut]

Matthew---

I agree fully....seems evident.....so, as I said, I think I just nit-picked
your phrasing.....

Mark

On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 10:45 AM matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Mark,
>
> Thanks, glad you've enjoyed the posts.
>
> Yes, anybody in an urban area with a good bookstore (already a very
> limited set of the US population in the 1950's) could have come across a
> number of works referring to a few of our favourite things (Dostoevsky's
> "Novel with Cocaine" or Pitigrelli's "Cocaine" predate Burroughs by
> decades). However, the likelihood that Pynchon's crew talked about
> substances other than cannabis much or knew anybody that used or knew
> someone that used, was very remote. That's just going by the numbers. Of
> course, if one decided to frequent the underworld and hang out with benny
> popping prostitutes, they were much more likely to run into the Herbert
> Huncke types. But from what I've been able to pick up on (that ain't much),
> that's not the path that TP took. He wasn't hangin out on the East Side
> with the speed freaks or getting high at the Factory. Of course, unless he
> decides to make that information available, we will never know how close to
> the urban underbelly of lumpenproletariat day and nights he may have come.
>
> best regards,
> mc otis
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 12:44 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks again for all of this interesting history and detail (and smart
>> speculating).
>>
>> I will only pick a nit. I think Pynchon would have heard about 'heroin"
>> and other substances out there"
>> as he learned and read some famous works of literature. De Quincy,
>> Burroughs' JUNKY (of the mid-fifties)
>> and others.
>>
>> On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 6:36 AM matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Thomas,
>>>
>>>   Glad to help remind you. The list that Kinzer has in his book
>>> onGottlieb
>>> is staggering. Silly me. I thought, "Yeah, one or two unethical
>>> professors
>>> or Doctors could get involved." Oh, sweet naivete.
>>>
>>>    Just to provide a counterpoint to the idea that he "picked up
>>> something
>>> in the air". In the Kinzer book about Gottlieb, he writes that for a long
>>> time Kesey didn't believe Ginsberg about the CIA being behind the LSD;
>>> sadly, there is no date given for when that conversation transpired.
>>> However,the following sentence makes it clear that it occurred before the
>>> Church Committee. "Once the existence of MK-ULTRA was revealed in the
>>> 1970's, he [Kesey] realized that Ginsberg was right" pg190). So Ginsberg
>>> knew before the Committee blew the lid off it all. How and when would be
>>> interesting to know.
>>>           And it's understandable that even Kesey couldn't believe it as
>>> that was a time before the now famous acronym (thank you, Tom Clancy?)
>>> was
>>> so widely recognized. Also, people believed doctors back then in a way
>>> that
>>> we don't now. Check the bit on Whitey Bulger in the book, it could almost
>>> make you feel sorry for the guy. He really thought they were giving him
>>> something for research. Later, when he found out the truth, he swore he'd
>>> kill the Dr. But that was one crime he didn't get to commit. And let me
>>> just finish this part with a comment on discretion. Although much of what
>>> happened during MK-Ultra was not exactly discreet, people did keep quiet.
>>> One guy, at least, that was about to talk, was made permanently quiet.
>>> But
>>> most of those Dr's and CIA sociopaths were keeping quiet at first because
>>> it was a fight against the Ruskies (later because they were all
>>> criminally responsible for horrendous crimes.) REDS! "Keep mum, she's not
>>> dumb" was still in the air. Nobody was taking selfies of patients or
>>> prisoners (or the elephant) when they were whacked on Alice D. and
>>> getting
>>> their brains/ psyches prodded and tortured.
>>>
>>>   And one more angle to take on the question of whether TP knew or had
>>> heard about LSD Dr's dosing suburban types (and an elephant). Wouldn't
>>> you
>>> expect to see that turn up in some of his short stories? And let me give
>>> some applause to Mr. Bailey's ongoing analysis of the early stories
>>> (sorry
>>> I don't have time to respond to those posts). I mean, you're a young
>>> aspiring writer and you hear a crazy rumour/ story, wouldn't you use
>>> that?
>>> And just to tag one more thing on here. By his own admission in the
>>> Intro.
>>> to SL, TP clearly says that his early cannabis humour was more talk than
>>> real smoke; it simply was not ubiquitous in the way that it is today or
>>> was
>>> even in the 1980's, for example. He likely hadn't even heard very much
>>> about heroin or other substances that were certainly out there, but not
>>> as
>>> present and available as they are today. Of course, that is a very sad
>>> evolution to see occur.
>>>
>>> Keep well, Thomas.
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>> mc otis
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 8:34 PM Hübschräuber <
>>> huebschraeuber at protonmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I knew about Wolff and the Human Ecology Fund but did not remember that
>>> > this was in Cornell. It increases the possibility that Pynchon picked
>>> up
>>> > something in the air (rumours, hearsay, whispered conversations in the
>>> > hallways) rather than being privy to beyond top secret information, I'd
>>> > say. Thank you.
>>> >
>>> > Sicher versendet mit Proton Mail <https://proton.me/>.
>>> >
>>> > ------- Original Message -------
>>> > rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um
>>> > 16:34:
>>> >
>>> > who know, maybe Pynchon figured out if the US gov't was willing to use
>>> LSD
>>> > and other such things to control enemy populations that it would have
>>> no
>>> > problem using such techniques on its own populations, Cornell in the
>>> 50s
>>> > being such an example:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://ahrp.org/1953-dr-wolff-and-dr-hinkle-investigate-communist-brainwashing/
>>> >
>>> > Wolff proposed a partnership with the CIA aimed at mastering the
>>> > techniques for gaining control over human beings’ thought patterns and
>>> > behavior patterns. Drs. Wolff and Hinkle obtained permission from
>>> Cornell’s
>>> > President and high University officials to conduct these experiments at
>>> > Cornell on behalf of the CIA. They continued to test *“secret drugs and
>>> > various brain damaging procedures”* on unwitting patients.
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 5:39 PM Thomas Eckhardt via Pynchon-l <
>>> > pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Thanks, not much to argue here. I take the opportunity to state my
>>> >> arguments more precisely
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > Nazi doctors are a different story. None of the doctors
>>> >> > involved in the LSD testing in the US MK-Ultra were former Nazi's or
>>> >> > even German.
>>> >>
>>> >> My point is that there is a direct line between the mescaline
>>> >> experiments in Nazi concentration camps to mescaline and LSD testing
>>> in
>>> >> MKULTRA. Which happens to be also what the author of the book you
>>> >> recommended wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> "[Scientists at Fort Detrick] spent many hours questioning German
>>> >> scientists about mescaline experiments that had been performed on
>>> >> prisoners at the Dachau concentration camp. (...) Gottlieb read piles
>>> of
>>> >> reports on these experiments." (59)
>>> >>
>>> >> L. Wilson Greene, technical director of the Chemical and Radiological
>>> >> Laboratories at Edgewood Arsenal wrote his "Psychochemical Warfare: A
>>> >> New Concept of War" which "concluded with a strong recommendation that
>>> >> the government begin systematically testing LSD, mescaline, and sixty
>>> >> other mind-altering compounds that might be weaponized for use against
>>> >> enemy populations." (36)
>>> >>
>>> >> Hilarius, of course, remembers working with new drugs to induce
>>> insanity
>>> >> in Buchenwald (COL49, Perennial Classics, 112).
>>> >>
>>> >> (I also note in passing that on p. 117 the program to test LSD on
>>> >> suburban housewives is suddenly Hilarius' program which he has
>>> broadened
>>> >> "to include husbands" like Mucho.)
>>> >>
>>> >> > It is quite a leap to think that because /some/ people
>>> >> > were aware of German scientists in the US that they would also know
>>> >> > about the attempt to get Blome into the US, which did not finally
>>> >> > happen. That includes TP.
>>> >>
>>> >> My argument does not hinge on Blome. They got Strughold and Schreiber
>>> in
>>> >> the US and quite a few more. See Linda Hunt, "Secret Agenda", or:
>>> >>
>>> >> https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/08/98078/
>>> >>
>>> >> All in all, more than 1,600 Nazi scientists were shipped to the US.
>>> >>
>>> >> > And allow me to clarify something: I didn't mean to minimize
>>> >> > Hilarius.
>>> >>
>>> >> No worries. I didn't think you did.
>>> >>
>>> >> > In fact, I see this as part of an important trend through TP's
>>> >> > work, namely his clear targeting of anti-semiticism and racism.
>>> (This
>>> >> is
>>> >> > likely in part because of his closeness to the Meyerhof family with
>>> >> whom
>>> >> > he spent much time.) TP's portrayal is a grotesque ridicule of
>>> >> Hilarius.
>>> >> > And lest we forget, Hilarius is a dentist - not one of TP's
>>> favourite
>>> >> > professionals. The satirical treatment targets Hilarius and is
>>> meant to
>>> >> > do what satire does. Levitas does not mean one takes things lightly.
>>> >> > Look at the humour in /The Master and Marguerita/.
>>> >>
>>> >> This is my reading as well. I particularly like two aspects that have
>>> >> nothing to do what we are discussing: That Hilarius is "put in charge
>>> of
>>> >> faces", and his discussion of Freudian and Jungian concepts of the
>>> >> subconscious.
>>> >>
>>> >> > As I see it the two camps presented in this email chain are: my idea
>>> >> > that TP created the character of Hilarius without knowing about
>>> Blome
>>> >> or
>>> >> > Paperclip, it is a product of his own authorial project and his
>>> >> > particular habitus; the other view appears to be that in order to
>>> >> create
>>> >> > Hilarius he must have known somehow about these very top secret
>>> affairs.
>>> >>
>>> >> Yes. I don't think he *must* have known, however, but believe it to be
>>> >> likely. Granted, I may have occasionally overstated my point.
>>> >>
>>> >> > It is not impossible that TP was given such information, but it is
>>> >> > highly unlikely and therefore rather implausible. You wrote: "It
>>> should
>>> >> > have been impossible for him to even speculate that this kind of war
>>> >> > criminal was allowed to live in the US, no?" Not at all. In fact,
>>> this
>>> >> > is where we differ.
>>> >>
>>> >> Yes.
>>> >>
>>> >> > I believe that writers do come up with things, and
>>> >> > they are sometimes true. Look at E.A. Poe's /Eureka/, in which he
>>> puts
>>> >> > forth an idea very similar to the Big Bang theory. Did he have some
>>> >> > prior knowledge? No, he was being imaginative and creative.
>>> Dreaming up
>>> >> > a dentist who is a Nazi war criminal that gives LSD to his patients
>>> >> > would have been easier for TP to do than obtain the information you
>>> >> > speculate that he had.
>>> >>
>>> >> Which is perfectly comprehensible.
>>> >>
>>> >> > It is difficult to determine where an artist has borrowed and
>>> recycled
>>> >> > or where they have spun from strands of dreams. Clearly, TP has
>>> done a
>>> >> > titanic amount of research. But is it not to his greater credit to
>>> >> > postulate that he thought up Hilarius without knowing about Blome,
>>> >> > Paperclip &/or MK-Ultra? Of course, I'm not here to convince you of
>>> >> that
>>> >> > or anything else. Proselytizing rarely works. Just sharing my view.
>>> >>
>>> >> A respectful debate is always worthwhile. It is instructive, fun, and
>>> >> hopefully helps to keep Alzheimer's away.
>>> >>
>>> >> Best,
>>> >> Thomas
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> --
>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>
>>