COL 49 2024 group read MPIN-AT

Thu Aug 8 09:20:53 UTC 2024

I do not think that is the real realization she comes to....and I'll take
Pynchon's words and vision on America
any day over and over over yours....

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:30 AM Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
wrote:

> It’s an Oedipa-centric reading.
> There’s certainly more to the book that that, but that’s the part I noticed
> most this time around.
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:52 PM Joseph Tracy <brook at sover.net> wrote:
>
> > I do like the idea of her realizing she is somebody’s fiction. >From my
> > perspective America is a work of fiction to which we ascribe more meaning
> > than can be born.  I still see more of ? What is real? Than ?what is
> > reality?. That seems too vast for mortals .
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Aug 7, 2024, at 1:30 AM, Michael Bailey <
> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > My personal, idiosyncratic, non-authoritative take, at least for this
> > > rereading, has 3 main features:
> > >
> > >
> > > A) I seem to have landed on a postmodern interpretation having to do
> with
> > > my settling for the meaning of Tristero y Calavera as primarily an
> > obvious
> > > intrusion of the author, and Oedipa fascinated with so many
> > synchronicities
> > > (who wouldn’t be?) asymptotically approaching the realization that
> she’s
> > a
> > > fictional character
> > >
> > > To calculate the area under that curve, we can use a process of
> (secret)
> > > integration to define an infinite series of authorial/Calaveran delta-t
> > > insertions driving Oedipal attempts at realizations, which sum up into
> a
> > > status where she will be “in on” the symbolism - will be aware that her
> > > primary struggle is in coming to terms with difficult-to-assimilate
> facts
> > > of life: Pierce’s death in particular, and death in general - and as we
> > > provisionally accept her reality, we are increasingly
> sobered/enlightened
> > > by her experiences, encouraged by her perseverance, and buoyed by
> sharing
> > > such consolation as she finds.
> > >
> > > Oedipa lives in a world she didn’t make, as do we; her experiences are
> > > relevant, even if they don’t map exactly.
> > >
> > > B) A slight detournement of one of the symbols suggests itself:
> > > Muting a horn doesn’t actually silence it - it changes the tone as when
> > > Miles Davis plays a muted trumpet, makes the sound more pleasing, less
> > > blaring.
> > >
> > > C) In choosing to project Oedipa, I think Pynchon was (consciously or
> > > unconsciously) delineating a female character whose charms - and flaws
> -
> > he
> > > could relate to, & love.
> > >
> > > I like to see Pynchon as similar to Genghis Cohen, serenely collecting
> > his
> > > stamps & sharing homemade dandelion wine while doing so; “once so shy”
> > but
> > > now coming up with “new goodies every other day” and beginning to find
> a
> > > place in Oedipa’s affections, paralleled in real life by the author
> > > gradually weathering life’s buffets, finding true love, flying towards
> > > grace type of thing.
> > >
> > > I’m aware & respectful of other interpretations -  the book obviously
> > means
> > > a lot of things to different people, a banquet for thought.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 11:53 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "Oh, I see - you’re saying that Wharfinger wrote the Tristero in, &
> the
> > >>
> > >> Vatican suppressed it - no need for Scurvhamites.” MB
> > >>
> > >> Yes that is my idea. I’m not saying Blobb’s records of the existence
> of
> > >> the Tristero are false, just that the only reason to think there is a
> > >> connection between the "tryst with trystero" line and the Scurvhamites
> > is
> > >> Bortz and D’Amico’s speculations. It seems to me the Vatican has far
> > more
> > >> motive  and more power to publish and circulate an altered version
> and
> > >> suppress the original.
> > >>
> > >> The What the Fuck publisher got hold of an original version, said what
> > the
> > >> fuck, and printed it.
> > >>
> > >> Of course K. da Chingado could have been another PI enterprise. But
> the
> > >> more I think about that prospect , the more I think that is the most
> > >> conspiracy oriented version. Is the conspiracy to distract from PI’s
> > >> involvement with the Mob? (Takes us back into JFK terrain IMO and
> maybe
> > >> that is where P wants us to go) But how did PI know OM would stay at
> the
> > >> Echo C , meet the Paranoids, go with them to Fangoso,  and be
> > influenced by
> > >> one of their chicks to see the Courier’s Tragedy.  Was Pierce
> > threatened by
> > >> the mob and OM chosen by him  as co executor  to find out?  Gets murky
> > in
> > >> every direction.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Aug 4, 2024, at 12:55 AM, Michael Bailey <
> > michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Oh, I see - you’re saying that Wharfinger wrote the Tristero in, & the
> > >> Vatican suppressed it - no need for Scurvhamites.
> > >>
> > >> That does fit with Bortz’s tendency to embellish. His Konrad and the
> > >> cold-conking waitress is straight outta his drama-prof mind, eg. (and
> > yet,
> > >> Cohen has a friend who finds something rather similar later on)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 12:41 AM Michael Bailey <
> > >> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Joseph Tracy wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ….
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The Vatican would by all logic favor the Thurn and Taxis postal
> control
> > >>
> > >> and their dependence on the Holy Roman Empire. They might simply be
> > >> motivated to keep a copy of the original Wharfinger play both for
> their
> > >> secret records and their porn collection, and change the words to
> place
> > all
> > >> the guilt in the story on the incestuous, priest-torturing Duke Angelo
> > and
> > >> would also obscure the very existence of a competing postal system.
> > This
> > >> seems a far more logical ( Occam’s razor)explanation.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> However, the Scurvhamite edition did contain the Trystero reference:
> > >>
> > >> [Oed] “But the line about Trystero isn’t dirty.”
> > >>
> > >> [Bortz] scratched his head. “It fits, surely? The ‘hallowed skein of
> > >> stars’ is God’s will. But even that can’t ward, or guard, somebody who
> > has
> > >> an appointment with Trystero. I mean, say you only talked about
> crossing
> > >> the lusts of Angelo, hell, there’d be any number of ways to get out of
> > >> that. Leave the country. Angelo’s only a man. But the brute Other,
> that
> > >> kept the nonScurvhamite universe running like clockwork, that was
> > something
> > >> else again. Evidently they felt Trystero would symbolize the Other
> quite
> > >> well.”
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I’m in full accord with the rest:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The advantage of the Scurvhamites  is to have fun with the bizarre
> > >> extremes of Calvinism,  and to shift focus to the universality of
> > personal
> > >> ambition and scheming within both religion  and secular aspirations to
> > >> rule. Pynchon is pointing out that the same interdependence of church
> > and
> > >> state that passed from the Gods and Ceasars and then moved  to  the
> > >> interdependence  of the Vatican  and the emperor Charlemagne (
> > beginning of
> > >> Holy Roman Empire), had then passed  in the reformation to the
> > >> interdependence of nationalism and various Protestant sects. There is
> no
> > >> return  in this progression to the nonviolent healing and sharing of
> the
> > >> Galilean except in non-state affiliated  religious communities  and
> > >> independent thinkers( the anabaptists, Franciscans, Quakers, ). There
> is
> > >> also a challenging  secular version of this pursuit in people like Tom
> > >> Paine, Galileo, Copernicus, enlightenment figures etc.)
> > >>
> > >> To look at this history from within the good guys v. bad guys culture
> > >> wars of the 60s or now is startling in the arbitrariness and the
> sheer
> > >> violence of dueling doctrines, movements of people,  technological
> > changes,
> > >> intermarriage, language wars etc. How do we frame  our cultural and
> > >> personal  struggles within this confused history and what is the role
> of
> > >> communication systems, or what we now call media in that  conflicted
> > >> landscape? Who should decide?
> > >>
> > >> To be continued
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > --
> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>