COL 49 2024 group read MPIN-AT

Thu Aug 8 09:23:32 UTC 2024

The novel is Oedipa-centric....She is the only main character....she
experiences all the themes, all the vision,
all the mystery and THAT ENDING....

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:30 AM Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
wrote:

> It’s an Oedipa-centric reading.
> There’s certainly more to the book that that, but that’s the part I noticed
> most this time around.
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:52 PM Joseph Tracy <brook at sover.net> wrote:
>
> > I do like the idea of her realizing she is somebody’s fiction. >From my
> > perspective America is a work of fiction to which we ascribe more meaning
> > than can be born.  I still see more of ? What is real? Than ?what is
> > reality?. That seems too vast for mortals .
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Aug 7, 2024, at 1:30 AM, Michael Bailey <
> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > My personal, idiosyncratic, non-authoritative take, at least for this
> > > rereading, has 3 main features:
> > >
> > >
> > > A) I seem to have landed on a postmodern interpretation having to do
> with
> > > my settling for the meaning of Tristero y Calavera as primarily an
> > obvious
> > > intrusion of the author, and Oedipa fascinated with so many
> > synchronicities
> > > (who wouldn’t be?) asymptotically approaching the realization that
> she’s
> > a
> > > fictional character
> > >
> > > To calculate the area under that curve, we can use a process of
> (secret)
> > > integration to define an infinite series of authorial/Calaveran delta-t
> > > insertions driving Oedipal attempts at realizations, which sum up into
> a
> > > status where she will be “in on” the symbolism - will be aware that her
> > > primary struggle is in coming to terms with difficult-to-assimilate
> facts
> > > of life: Pierce’s death in particular, and death in general - and as we
> > > provisionally accept her reality, we are increasingly
> sobered/enlightened
> > > by her experiences, encouraged by her perseverance, and buoyed by
> sharing
> > > such consolation as she finds.
> > >
> > > Oedipa lives in a world she didn’t make, as do we; her experiences are
> > > relevant, even if they don’t map exactly.
> > >
> > > B) A slight detournement of one of the symbols suggests itself:
> > > Muting a horn doesn’t actually silence it - it changes the tone as when
> > > Miles Davis plays a muted trumpet, makes the sound more pleasing, less
> > > blaring.
> > >
> > > C) In choosing to project Oedipa, I think Pynchon was (consciously or
> > > unconsciously) delineating a female character whose charms - and flaws
> -
> > he
> > > could relate to, & love.
> > >
> > > I like to see Pynchon as similar to Genghis Cohen, serenely collecting
> > his
> > > stamps & sharing homemade dandelion wine while doing so; “once so shy”
> > but
> > > now coming up with “new goodies every other day” and beginning to find
> a
> > > place in Oedipa’s affections, paralleled in real life by the author
> > > gradually weathering life’s buffets, finding true love, flying towards
> > > grace type of thing.
> > >
> > > I’m aware & respectful of other interpretations -  the book obviously
> > means
> > > a lot of things to different people, a banquet for thought.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 11:53 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "Oh, I see - you’re saying that Wharfinger wrote the Tristero in, &
> the
> > >>
> > >> Vatican suppressed it - no need for Scurvhamites.” MB
> > >>
> > >> Yes that is my idea. I’m not saying Blobb’s records of the existence
> of
> > >> the Tristero are false, just that the only reason to think there is a
> > >> connection between the "tryst with trystero" line and the Scurvhamites
> > is
> > >> Bortz and D’Amico’s speculations. It seems to me the Vatican has far
> > more
> > >> motive  and more power to publish and circulate an altered version
> and
> > >> suppress the original.
> > >>
> > >> The What the Fuck publisher got hold of an original version, said what
> > the
> > >> fuck, and printed it.
> > >>
> > >> Of course K. da Chingado could have been another PI enterprise. But
> the
> > >> more I think about that prospect , the more I think that is the most
> > >> conspiracy oriented version. Is the conspiracy to distract from PI’s
> > >> involvement with the Mob? (Takes us back into JFK terrain IMO and
> maybe
> > >> that is where P wants us to go) But how did PI know OM would stay at
> the
> > >> Echo C , meet the Paranoids, go with them to Fangoso,  and be
> > influenced by
> > >> one of their chicks to see the Courier’s Tragedy.  Was Pierce
> > threatened by
> > >> the mob and OM chosen by him  as co executor  to find out?  Gets murky
> > in
> > >> every direction.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Aug 4, 2024, at 12:55 AM, Michael Bailey <
> > michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Oh, I see - you’re saying that Wharfinger wrote the Tristero in, & the
> > >> Vatican suppressed it - no need for Scurvhamites.
> > >>
> > >> That does fit with Bortz’s tendency to embellish. His Konrad and the
> > >> cold-conking waitress is straight outta his drama-prof mind, eg. (and
> > yet,
> > >> Cohen has a friend who finds something rather similar later on)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 12:41 AM Michael Bailey <
> > >> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Joseph Tracy wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ….
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The Vatican would by all logic favor the Thurn and Taxis postal
> control
> > >>
> > >> and their dependence on the Holy Roman Empire. They might simply be
> > >> motivated to keep a copy of the original Wharfinger play both for
> their
> > >> secret records and their porn collection, and change the words to
> place
> > all
> > >> the guilt in the story on the incestuous, priest-torturing Duke Angelo
> > and
> > >> would also obscure the very existence of a competing postal system.
> > This
> > >> seems a far more logical ( Occam’s razor)explanation.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> However, the Scurvhamite edition did contain the Trystero reference:
> > >>
> > >> [Oed] “But the line about Trystero isn’t dirty.”
> > >>
> > >> [Bortz] scratched his head. “It fits, surely? The ‘hallowed skein of
> > >> stars’ is God’s will. But even that can’t ward, or guard, somebody who
> > has
> > >> an appointment with Trystero. I mean, say you only talked about
> crossing
> > >> the lusts of Angelo, hell, there’d be any number of ways to get out of
> > >> that. Leave the country. Angelo’s only a man. But the brute Other,
> that
> > >> kept the nonScurvhamite universe running like clockwork, that was
> > something
> > >> else again. Evidently they felt Trystero would symbolize the Other
> quite
> > >> well.”
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I’m in full accord with the rest:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The advantage of the Scurvhamites  is to have fun with the bizarre
> > >> extremes of Calvinism,  and to shift focus to the universality of
> > personal
> > >> ambition and scheming within both religion  and secular aspirations to
> > >> rule. Pynchon is pointing out that the same interdependence of church
> > and
> > >> state that passed from the Gods and Ceasars and then moved  to  the
> > >> interdependence  of the Vatican  and the emperor Charlemagne (
> > beginning of
> > >> Holy Roman Empire), had then passed  in the reformation to the
> > >> interdependence of nationalism and various Protestant sects. There is
> no
> > >> return  in this progression to the nonviolent healing and sharing of
> the
> > >> Galilean except in non-state affiliated  religious communities  and
> > >> independent thinkers( the anabaptists, Franciscans, Quakers, ). There
> is
> > >> also a challenging  secular version of this pursuit in people like Tom
> > >> Paine, Galileo, Copernicus, enlightenment figures etc.)
> > >>
> > >> To look at this history from within the good guys v. bad guys culture
> > >> wars of the 60s or now is startling in the arbitrariness and the
> sheer
> > >> violence of dueling doctrines, movements of people,  technological
> > changes,
> > >> intermarriage, language wars etc. How do we frame  our cultural and
> > >> personal  struggles within this confused history and what is the role
> of
> > >> communication systems, or what we now call media in that  conflicted
> > >> landscape? Who should decide?
> > >>
> > >> To be continued
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > --
> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>