AtD question

[David Morris]

Thanks for your very thoughtful response.

I’m a maximalist reader, and GR is one of the top books in my pantheon. So,
I feel some license to opinions on his other works (GR was his apex). Along
the same lines, I am a huge Nabokov reader, but I have serious reservations
about Pale Fire, and Ada, because (for me) they have become what seems an
authorial invitation to a circle jerk: anticipation and elaborate, ebbing
and swelling numbers and types of participants, etc. But I MUCH prefer
Lolita for a deeper look into intererior sources the SAME mystery



On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 10:05 AM matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com> wrote:

> D.M.,
>
> As a maximalist type of writer, there is always a lot going on in TP's
> novels and that is where people like James Wood start to crow about him
> being too heavy on plot and unforgivably weak on characters. I think the
> only one who can address what you call the "payoff" is the reader, but of
> course that is not really a truly individual act.
>
> (I think of TP's novels as some mix of Jackson Pollock, Salvado Dalí,
> Pieter Bruegel - and that falls short.)
>
> What's the payoff in reading this? You can almost hear the critics say
> that to each other as they look at the weighty volume of The Recognitions.
> And in response you can hear Jack Green screaming.
>
> But of course that is what the "serious" people have been saying for
> centuries, "Why are reading that? It won't get you anywhere. Just mess up
> your head with nonsense." Indeed.
>
> At the Bloomsday centenary in Dublin in 2004, I heard a speaker say
> something to the effect that "every Dubliner has at least 2 books: the
> Bible and Ulysses. And they haven't read either of them."
>
> What we choose to read (or what chooses us to read it?) and what we make
> of it and how we evaluate it, are incredibly complex processes.
> Fortunately, I'm not addressing that. Nor even if
> the section of the novel ( or my reading of it) provides
> sufficient quantities of a certain type of juice. I am trying to look at
> how that section ( to be seen, like all authorial decisions albeit semi- or
> unconsciously, as position-takings) in response to the available positions
> in the literary field. Or more simply, I want to look into what I think has
> been under-represented in the critical literature.
> Quod scripsi, scribentes.
>
> ciao
> mc otis
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 2:32 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> WOW!  Great detailed diving and reassembly!
>>
>> AtD is FULL of mystical junctures (probably too many). I think it’s so
>> immersed in play into and out of those alternate dimensions that it runs
>> the risk of being a Jambalaya too far!  Very few people will dive into it
>> so deep. And it’s always going to then ask the question of its PAYOFF!
>> Does it deliver the juice? Or is that fountain always on the other side of
>> the next portal?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 7:50 AM matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Howdy Folks,
>>>
>>> Belated Happy New year. I'm glad some of you have taken interest in this
>>> very strange part of the book. I plan to present on this at the upcoming
>>> IPW in Serbia in June.
>>>
>>> First, let's try to sort things out with time and place. Kit and Dally
>>> have
>>> been star-crossed lovers through much  of the book, coming together only
>>> to
>>> be separated. It is now very close to the end of the book and Kit and
>>> Dally
>>> are in Venice where Kit has taken up dive bomber work with Renzo
>>> (starting
>>> to look a bit like Gabriele D'Annunzio?). Dally doesn't approve and they
>>> have an argument. On return from a mission he finds a note: "*I'm going
>>> to
>>> Paris*." (1074) This is when we read that she sees Policarpe. The line
>>> about "back in Belgium" is a bit confusing because after he says that the
>>> peace is just an illusion, he then says, "For a moment I thought I had
>>> seen
>>> your former husband."  We then read, "In fact he had. Kit had returned to
>>> Paris *unexpectedly*, after some time in Lwów." We then get the analepsis
>>> that explains: Dally left and Kit kept fighting until, "one day the War
>>> was
>>> over". He meets an algebraist (E. Percy Movay) and goes to the
>>> "now-defunct
>>> Austro-Hungarian Empire" where he meets a circle of mathematicians at the
>>> Scottish Cafe. This brings him back into contact with Prof. Vanderjuice.
>>> (The Prof. explains that he wanted to kill Vibe, and was rescued by the
>>> Chums -  one of the very few times that the two narrative trajectories
>>> cross and interact. Normally, the world of the Chums does not intersect
>>> the
>>> Traverse world.)
>>> So, Kit is in Lwow/ Lviv. And one day Vanderjuice vanishes. "Kit went
>>> down
>>> to the Glowny Dworzec and got on a train and headed west, though soon he
>>> got off and went across the tracks onto another platform and waited for a
>>> train going east..." So he is yo-yoing. "He would come to for brief
>>> intervals, and then go back inside a regime of starvation and
>>> hallucination
>>> and mental absence." (1080) He apparently goes through the Iron Gates
>>> (Belgrade) and later Lake Baikal (Russia). "From this precise spot along
>>> the shoreline it was possible to "see" the far shore a city, crystalline,
>>> redemptive." (Was this Shambala?) He starts thinking about Dally.
>>> "After some weeks of this, he began to be visited by a sort of framed
>>> shadow suspended in the empty air, a transparent doorway, approaching him
>>> at a speed he knew he would not always be able to avoid." (1080) It is
>>> not
>>> clear exactly where he is.
>>> "At last one day, still hesitant, he decided to approach it - might then,
>>> in fright, have lost his balance, and seized all at once as if by
>>> gravity,
>>> he toppled into the curiously orthogonal opening, exclaiming "What's
>>> this,"
>>> as to the astonishment of onlookers he was turned to shimmering
>>> transparency, dwindling into a sort of graceful cone and swept through
>>> its
>>> point into what appeared to be a tiny or perhaps only distant window of
>>> bright plasma. Kit, on the other hand,had remained the same size...."
>>> So there are on-lookers and they perceive events one way and Kit
>>> perceives
>>> them quite differently. This is exactly what Einstein first theorized,
>>> and
>>> now has become our understanding of what happens as one enters a black
>>> hole.
>>> And then he is in Paris in a hotel room of Lord Overlunch. Lord O. is in
>>> town for a crying of stamps; he explains that Kit was in Shambala,
>>> apparently on a stamp. Kit says he wasn't to which Lord O. responds
>>> "Well,
>>> well. A twin perhaps." When Kit inquires as to how he arrived, Lord O.
>>> simply says, "It's the way people reappear these days." So it is far from
>>> clear what has caused Kit to cross space/time to be in Paris. In fact it
>>> is
>>> no more clear than how Slothrop starts to dissipate and disappear.
>>> Moreover, I place this ending beside GR's in terms of baffling authorial
>>> practice; in comparison the antagonists of other Pynchon novels have
>>> rather
>>> comprehensible exits from the narrative scene as the curtain comes down.
>>> (The section has a number of elements that tie it to other Pynchon
>>> novels,
>>> which is clearly on purpose.)
>>>
>>> Pynchon could have put Kit on a train back to Paris to be reunited with
>>> Dally, but that would be lazy and almost as unoriginal as riding off into
>>> the sunset. I argue that his solution draws on two things that
>>> thematically
>>> run through the book (science and religion) but that the sources come
>>> from
>>> outside the book as well. However, I'll wait until after the conference
>>> to
>>> share all that. I will say this: the cone is very important.
>>>
>>> Oh, and if our amazing translator Mike Jing is reading, I will add that I
>>> just came across a use of that concept in the second book of the
>>> "Three-body Problem" trilogy (The Dark Forest). In one scene (p218-9) a
>>> scientist explains the concept of a light cone and says, "It's impossible
>>> for people outside the cone to comprehend events taking place inside the
>>> cone" To this the other character responds, "Fate lies within the light
>>> cone." If TP read that line, I'm sure he thought it brilliant.
>>>
>>> ciao
>>> mc otis
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 5:16 AM Michael Bailey <
>>> michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > So, way late in the book, and *after* Kit and Dally separated -
>>> >
>>> > Thank you Mike, and everyone on the thread (Matthew for originating)
>>> >
>>> > It’s actually a really cool section and I’d forgotten about it, or
>>> maybe
>>> > didn’t really read it attentively at all before.
>>> >
>>> > Kit meets up in Lwów with - ah, spoiler alert
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Professor Vanderjuice & they talk about the Zermelo Axiom & in fact
>>> it’s so
>>> > good I think tomorrow, I’ll start a “reference chasing thread” for
>>> those
>>> > few pages
>>> >
>>> > (Takin’ a break from Flange for a minute)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 12:23 AM Mike Jing <
>>> gravitys.rainbow.cn at gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > I went back and reread Part Four and Part Five. It turns out that
>>> some
>>> > > sort of “teletransportation” did happen to Kit, although not from
>>> the Far
>>> > > East back to Paris, but from Lwów, Poland. He somehow ended up in the
>>> > hotel
>>> > > room of Lord Overlunch, a stamp collector, who told him he was on a
>>> > > Shambhala postage stamp. This happened in Part Five (p1080-1081),
>>> after
>>> > Kit
>>> > > and Dally separated, and hinted at some kind of reunion.
>>> > >
>>> > > Before that, after leaving Fleetwood without saying goodbye, Kit
>>> somehow
>>> > > trekked to Constantinople:
>>> > >
>>> > > “Kit as a matter of fact was already on the run. He had been living
>>> in
>>> > > Constantinople, tending bar at the Hôtel des Deux Continents, off the
>>> > > Grande Rue over on the European or honkytonk side of the Golden Horn
>>> in
>>> > > Pera, long enough almost to’ve come to believe his life had found its
>>> > > equilibrium at last. Folks out here talked about fate, but for Kit it
>>> > was a
>>> > > matter of stillness.
>>> > >
>>> > > It had taken him a while, from Kazakh Upland to Kirghiz Steppe to
>>> Caspian
>>> > > Depression, short hops in little steamers along the Anatolian coast,
>>> the
>>> > > invisible City ahead of him gripping him ever more surely in its
>>> field,
>>> > as
>>> > > he felt the weight of reverence, of history, the nervous bright edge
>>> of
>>> > > revolution, around the final cape and into the Bosphorus, the
>>> palaces and
>>> > > small harbors and mosques and ship traffic, beneath the Galata Tower,
>>> > > docking at last at Eminönü.”
>>> > >
>>> > > Until he helped an enemy of the C.U.P. and had to leave for
>>> Buda-Pesth in
>>> > > a hurry. (p911-912)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 5:05 AM Michael Bailey <
>>> > > michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> Let’s see, I never did connect Kit’s travels very well:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Kit and Yashmeen scarper from Göttingen together on an ostensible
>>> > mission
>>> > >> to the Far East for the T.W.I.T.S…
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Meet up with Reef in a sanatorium in Switzerland
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Kit takes off with Reef to try to kill Vibe in Italy
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Yashmeen is called back to London
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Kit & Reef fail to kill Vibe; Kit continues on eastward to Trieste,
>>> > >> carrying a letter from Yashmeen to her
>>> > >> father (who’s in the East)
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On to Bucharest, Baku, then there’s some riding on the Trans-Caspian
>>> > >> railway … to Kashgar (as of 2023
>>> > >> it’s in western China)
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Yashmeen’s father, Auberon Halfcourt, is living a diplomat/spy’s
>>> life &
>>> > >> facing off frequently with his Russian counterpart, Colonel
>>> Prokladka
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Halfcourt sends Kit to Siberia in the company of Lieutenant
>>> Prance…He’s
>>> > >> overawed by Lake Baikal…
>>> > >>
>>> > >> To Irkutsk, where they get a bunch of counterfeit coins from a
>>> British
>>> > >> agent named Poundstock, to take & circulate in the Tunguska region
>>> > >>
>>> > >> After the Tunguska event they go to Tuva & hear the
>>> throat-singers…they
>>> > >> sort of discern that the T.W.I.T.S no longer care what they do…they
>>> > >> separate
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Prance meets & flies off with the Chums
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Kit takes up with a band of woodchoppers
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Sees Fleetwood Vibe, catches up with family news, then they spend an
>>> > >> uneasy
>>> > >> night dreaming of killing each other
>>> > >>
>>> > >> After which - “[Fleetwood] looked over, through the wind-beaten
>>> > confusion,
>>> > >> at where Kit’s bedroll should have been. But Kit had left sometime
>>> in
>>> > the
>>> > >> night, as if taken by the wind.”
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Next time we see Kit, he’s on a Wagons-Lits train east of Budapest,
>>> > >> heading
>>> > >> for Paris - & at a brief stop in Szeged, sees Dally on the Orient
>>> > Express
>>> > >> going the other way, about to be abducted…
>>> > >>
>>> > >> He saves her from her would-be captors and they become lovers.
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> So yes, there’s a gap. Whether it’s teleportation that brings Kit
>>> back
>>> > >> from
>>> > >> Asia into Europe and onto the train, one cannot say for certain -
>>> nor
>>> > that
>>> > >> it isn’t.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> It’s like he goes further & further into the parts of the world less
>>> > >> familiar (to Westerners) and then - like in Pac-Man - goes off the
>>> edge
>>> > of
>>> > >> the board and comes back in on the other side.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Or - to use the yoyo metaphor from _V._ - he does some elaborate
>>> > tricking
>>> > >> in Asia, walking the dog etc, and then at just the right moment, the
>>> > >> attraction of Dally pulls him rapidly into a pericheir.
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 3:37 AM Mike Jing <
>>> > gravitys.rainbow.cn at gmail.com>
>>> > >> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> > I haven't touched AtD for a while and may have forgotten, but I
>>> don't
>>> > >> > remember such a "teletransportation" taking place anywhere in the
>>> > book.
>>> > >> As
>>> > >> > far as I can tell, Kit met Dally by chance on his way back from
>>> the
>>> > Far
>>> > >> > East, and they went back to Italy together and got married. But
>>> they
>>> > >> > eventually separated and Dally went to live in Paris, while Kit
>>> > >> remained in
>>> > >> > Italy.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > On Thu, Nov 9, 2023 at 4:44 AM matthew cissell <
>>> mccissell at gmail.com>
>>> > >> > wrote:
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > > Howdy folks,
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > Maybe y'all can help me with something. I'm pretty behind on
>>> recent
>>> > >> > Pynchon
>>> > >> > > critical writing and I'm trying to find out if anything has been
>>> > >> written
>>> > >> > on
>>> > >> > > a certain subject. My problem is that I'm not finding much but I
>>> > >> suspect
>>> > >> > I
>>> > >> > > may not be getting good search results. (I've checked Orbit but
>>> came
>>> > >> > across
>>> > >> > > nothing relevant.)
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > My question is: does anyone know of any articles or essays that
>>> deal
>>> > >> with
>>> > >> > > Kit's "teletransportation" from the Far East back to Paris at
>>> the
>>> > end
>>> > >> of
>>> > >> > > the AtD? It strikes me that heaps has been written about
>>> Slothrop as
>>> > >> he
>>> > >> > > fades from (into?) the narrative of GR and yet little attention
>>> > >> appears
>>> > >> > to
>>> > >> > > have been given to Kit's rather perplexing instant transport
>>> through
>>> > >> > > space-time.
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > > ciao
>>> > >> > > mc otis
>>> > >> > > --
>>> > >> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> > >> > >
>>> > >> > --
>>> > >> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> --
>>> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > --
>>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >
>>> --
>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>
>>