Crying of Lot 49 Group Read 2024

[Mark Kohut]

with the Word as text I agree with this:

I have even
> suggested in earlier writings that Pynchon is ambitious enough to have
> supplied an alternate text to the Biblical one that shapes so much western
> culture..

I see them as the same, evolutionarily so. The Trystero is the anarchic
force in history.

The question is whether these are really the same or rather
> distinct  branches of the original phenomena and metaphorically represent
> very different historic or social  tendencies

On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 5:17 AM Michael Bailey <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thank you both, for those wide-ranging thoughts.
>
> It made something surface in my mind - I’m not real fond of Tristero, they
> seem to just be another faction with dubious claims and a propensity for
> violence.
>
> WASTE, though, seems like a different group, and a little more likeable.
> Their use of the posthorn comes off as provocative appropriation, like a
> Che poster on a dorm room wall.
>
> Oedipa doesn’t seem to be exactly lining it out that way, though, and
> continues to be fascinated with the historical Tristero.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2024 at 12:36 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
> > I like this reflection. It seems astutely insightful.  I have even
> > suggested in earlier writings that Pynchon is ambitious enough to have
> > supplied an alternate text to the Biblical one that shapes so much
> western
> > culture..  The difference is that he does not tell his audience what to
> > think about the actions and ideas even of his nastiest characters.
> History
> > and and myth and human behavior and beliefs become the text. This wide
> > open, interconnected musical  form allows in experiences and stories as
> > impossible as those from  the Bible , talking lightning, time machines, a
> > hollow earth, worlds in sewers. The effect for me is to abandon safe
> > roadmaps and connect dots for myself, always subject to new information.
> In
> > this mode of processing language  and truth claims, deepest convictions
> get
> > challenged and live or die only with profound inner change and genuine
> > research.
> >
> >  The place where I question one aspect of your presented interpretation
> of
> > the trystero/tristero  is something I have wondered about and part of
> why I
> > wanted to re-read the novel. It is the transition from Tristero to
> > W.A.S.T.E. The question is whether these are really the same or rather
> > distinct  branches of the original phenomena and metaphorically represent
> > very different historic or social  tendencies. The history  as Bortz
> > outlines it shows a divergence within Tristero between those who see it
> as
> > a tool to control any incursions into the privilege and power of the
> elite,
> > but by using it in populist causes it has led to a more anarchistic
> branch
> > and that is what Oedipa witnesses in the W.A.S.T.E  mail system . Bortz’s
> > overview includes a lot of real history. Only the Tristero itself  and
> its
> > key players are purely fictional. The question of what the initials stand
> > for is only given one explanation which is ambiguous . We await silent
> > Tristero’s Empire.
> >
> > I would also say that Pynchon’s text is much more than the Courier’s
> > Revenge but it is true that he is identifying a core pattern of political
> > history and the pursuit of power.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 10, 2024, at 8:01 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Backfilling. Mine.
> > >
> > > Someone asked "What about that text of (The Courier's Tragedy)?" or
> > close.
> > >
> > > I have always thought this about that text. The major Western 'text' is
> > the
> > > Bible
> > > and since that book's revelations are shown to be ambiguously missing
> in
> > > the usual signalling way
> > > in Crying  what TRP gives us instead is a new, secular text.
> > >
> > > First, reflect on Courier and its thematic connection to The Trystero.
> > Then
> > > tragedy.
> > >
> > > Think of this text as an artsy presentation of the meaning of history,
> as
> > > textual art does....(as we read novels and drama, from Shakespeare (and
> > all
> > > the Jacobeans) thru *Middlemarch* and *Magic Mountain* and *Gravity's
> > > Rainbow and more, more) *
> > > As text capturing history the meaning is that history is brutal,
> > > torturing and murdering and Revenge---the major theme of Jacobean
> > > theater---the cycle of history as reaction and counter-reaction, attack
> > and
> > > attack back, even JUSTLY but still the cycle of suffering and death.
> > > As we read though, we see what Historians say: the text of history is
> > > corrupted; we aren't sure of what exactly happened in lots of history;
> > our
> > > reading of it changes; stuff we thought we saw is gone, there is new
> > text,
> > > new missing text.....how do we see
> > >
> > > History?
> > >
> > > Is The Trystero responsible for the alternate readings of history in
> some
> > > ways. They do give us an alternative way of communicating; an
> alternative
> > > text ON PAPER, via universal alternative communication (and some
> > actions) .
> > > .....Later in this story we are going to actually read about another
> > > alternative communication. And we are going to read about a perfect
> > > anarchist's dance......
> > >
> > > Anarchism as bits of something---grace?--alternative ways of being,
> yes,
> > > are elsewhere in all of Pynchon from this to *Against the Day (*and
> > *Inherent
> > > Vice*? )
> > >
> > > is he Trystero, a self-organizing mail service, an anarchist force in
> > > history? The anarchist force?...
> > > --
> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>