The Crying of Lot 49, Group Read 2024

[Mark Kohut]

I have those volumes.....a gift to my significant other whom I
live with....have only looked up a few things...
The Constitutional Convention, for example, which is an interest.......by
the weekend, I will make time to read
on Shay's Rebellion.....and a town discussion group is all over the
immunity decision....

On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 9:33 PM J K Van Nort <jkvannort at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The 2 volume documentary history titled Debates on the Constitution by
> Library of America provides a well-rounded view of how the new nation saw
> the constitutional convention, process and the text itself.
>
>
> The idea of presidential immunity and presidential power were debated in
> terms of holding a president accountable. One prescient argument,
> paraphrased here, considered the difference between a mistake of
> decision-making as unimpeachable if it was about making a thinking error
> but quite impeachable for an emotional action.
>
>
> Also they repeatedly stress that the president could be tried in criminal
> court after he leaves office.
>
>
> Some of the back and forth are quite amazing. They generally refer to
> Shay’s Rebellion as the incident in Massachusetts rather than the historic
> name.
>
>
> In solidarity,
>
> James
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_>
>
> On Wednesday, June 19, 2024, 20:18, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> nice...nice....to learn.....
>
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 8:17 PM J K Van Nort <jkvannort at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Shay’s rebellion convinced many to accept the constitution. In the Debate
> on the Constitution (LOA), many of those supporting the ratification
> discuss Shay’s rebellion and the potential of anarchy as reasons to ratify.
>
>
> In solidarity,
>
> James
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_>
>
> On Wednesday, June 19, 2024, 19:28, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Yes, anarchism in its origins is defined as nonviolent. Yes, the individual
> is sacrosanct, in fact may be said to be all. (this is
> a political limitation I would argue but that is a side bit). Anarchism in
> history is IDEALLY like the deaf-mute dance in this novel--
> a self-organizing movement.
>
> If this is related to the blackest view of history as presented in *The
> Courier's Tragedy, *and I think it is, it is a vision of a kind of
> disruption
> of the brutal order of things.  A disruption from the cycle of violence, of
> torture, murder and destruction.  As many anarchists say, the State is
> always a violent force in history.....then maybe, sometimes, violence
> is necessary; has been necessary--or if that goes too morally far---at
> least violence is, sometimes, an evil but real disruption too.
>
> Fanon and others in P's time and ours?. The French Revolution?
> Or in the American context I keep speaking of. That sentence I first
> learned from the P--list I think, About Jefferson's "the tree of liberty
> being refreshed
> by the blood of patriots and tyrants".......letter by Thomas Jefferson to
> John Adams' son-in-law about Shay's Rebellion, which was a failed rebellion
> in which some rebels died:    and, of course, before the new
> constitution....
>
> Here's from the letter:
> "Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the
> single instance of Massachusets? And can history produce an instance of a
> rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it’s motives. They were
> founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20.
> years without such a rebellion.[1]
> <
> https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/tree-liberty-quotation/#fn-1
> >
> The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
> wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts
> they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a
> lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13.
> states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to
> one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country before
> ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can
> preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time
> that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.
> The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What
> signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be
> refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is
> it’s natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the
> insurrection of Massachusets: and in the spur of the moment they are
> setting up a kite to keep the hen yard in order. I hope in god this article
> will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted."[2]
> <
> https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/tree-liberty-quotation/#fn-2
> >
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 6:40 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I guess we need to examine the convergence of anarchy and violence.  I
> > tend to think that anarchy is nonviolent at its heart, because anarchy
> > seems to place individual choice as sacrosanct. But I suppose one might
> > need to consider violence as a means to carve out a space (GR’s “Zone”)
> to
> > allow for the possibility of anarchy.
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 5:57 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> P. "the anarchist dressed all in black"....like Driblette's assassins
> >> and the Tystero Force....the main part--the essence of it?
> >>
> >> Which is why it is disruptive but also sometimes violent?
> >>
> >> I often think of Dylan's two men on horseback in *All Along the
> >> Watchtower*
> >>
> >> and Pynchon's two riders in* Against the Day....*
> >> --
> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>
>