COL 49 and the information wars

[Mark Kohut]

And, of course, for Morgenthau and other "realists" , that deep state was
anti-democratic it" limited the range of democratic politics" as is said
above.

For Trump's reigns the 'deep state" is where the attempt to keep alive
lives predominantly. As a poet I read this morning wrote: Where things fall
to the surface....

On Fri, Sep 5, 2025 at 4:55 PM Hübschräuber via Pynchon-l <
pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:

> It is a highly instructive book. Yes, Dulles provided some help to the
> Nazis right to the very end ("Operation Sunrise"). The real enemy, for him
> as for Churchill, was always the Soviet Union.
>
> I was surprised to learn from Talbot that Dulles was in contact with Carl
> Gustav Jung whom he appears to have recruited for the OSS.
>
> As for the "secretive deep state", see Hans Morgenthau and the "Dual
> state" theory:
>
> "The Impact of the Loyalty-Security Measures on the State Department"
>
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00963402.1955.11453586
>
> Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a free copy online.
>
> Wiki sez:
>
> "In a 1955 article in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, Morgenthau
> quoted others speaking about a "dual state" existing in the United States:
> the democratic façade of elected politicians who operate according to the
> law, and a hidden national security hierarchy and shadow government that
> operates to monitor and control the former. This has been said to be the
> origin of the notion of a deep state in the United States."
>
> Swedish scholar Ole Tunander sez:
>
> "In a 1955 study of the United States State Department, Hans Morgenthau
> discussed the existence of a US ‘dual state’. According to Morgenthau, the
> US state includes both a ‘regular state hierarchy’ that acts according to
> the rule of law and a more or less hidden ‘security hierarchy’ — which I
> will refer to here as the ‘security state’ (also known in some countries as
> the ‘deep state’) — that not only acts in parallel to the former but also
> monitors and exerts control over it. In Morgenthau’s view, this security
> aspect of the state — the ‘security state’ — is able to ‘exert an effective
> veto over the decisions’ of the regular state governed by the rule of law.
> While the ‘democratic state’ offers legitimacy to security politics, the
> ‘security state’ intervenes where necessary, by limiting the range of
> democratic politics. While the ‘democratic state’ deals with political
> alternatives, the ‘security state’ enters the scene when ‘no alternative
> exists’, when particular activities are ‘securitised’ — in the event of an
> ‘emergency’. In fact, the security state is the very apparatus that defines
> when and whether a ‘state of emergency’ will emerge."
>
> https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:Democratic_State_v_Deep_State
>
> This harks back to Carl Schmitt and Ernst Fraenkel. It wasn't the great
> Peter Dale Scott or, God beware, the decidedly not great Donald Trump, who
> invented the concept of the "deep state"...
>
> In its modern incarnation, by the way, the term "deep state" derives from
> the Susurluk scandal in Turkey:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susurluk_scandal
>
>
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>