Possible Interpretation of the title Vineland

[J Tracy]

Sorry about the last mangled sentence.  version 2 :   In US film history , older men charming and seducing younger women happens frequently, and in GR…..

> On Feb 2, 2026, at 8:04 PM, J Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> 
> I basically agree with Laura that these pornographic scenes are at best insensitive to misogynistic abuse. At best, because it is very hard to tell them from writing that caters to pedophilic pornographic tastes. Perhaps Pynchon wants readers to be revolted or to think about the ugliness of the objectification of women and young girls  as sex orifices.  The fact that I read it as very disturbing, however, is not the best measure since I have read p-listers who thought it was hot. It definitely is not funny nor is it clearly satirizing male crudity.  The women in these novels who are revolted by fascism but  suddenly fall for fascists has never felt justified as a real thing,  certainly not as the repeated trope observable in P’s work., and it really is rather demeaning. The foot fetishism and other sexual hijinks seem well warranted and well used and all of it reflects cultural realities. I would suggest that the young Pynchon may actually have carried some immature ideas into his work, particularly about sexuality. Not an authoritative assertion, just a reasonable hypothesis.  There is a lot of this older man easily charms very young women thing in US film history and in GR that film version of life was something Pynchon was exploring. 
> 
>> On Feb 1, 2026, at 11:52 AM, Laura Kelber <laurakelber at gmail.com> wrot
>> 
>> Pynchon has some disturbing misogynistic tropes in his work. The first,
>> obviously is sex with the underaged - Lucille (?) in V, Bianca in GR. He
>> seems to have finally understood that this isn't cool in his later books
>> (unless I've missed anything). Then, the idea of women going weak in the
>> knees over men in uniform or cops or law enforcement men in general -
>> Frenesi, Maxine. As Mark mentions, the title of Plath's poem, dumbly taken
>> literally, probably encourages Pynchon and others in this trope. Third,
>> worst in some ways, is Woman as Betrayer of movements, of political
>> ideologies. I'm sure there may be some historical examples, particularly in
>> histories written by men, but offhand, I can't think of one. Certainly not
>> on the level of, say, the embedded stooges of COINTELPRO or the Pinkertons.
>> And in terms of family betrayal, it's usually the dad who walks out, the
>> son who betrays the father, at least in real life. So why Frenesi, why
>> Lake?
>> 
>> As a side note, I found PTA's casual adaptation of two of these
>> misogynistic tropes particularly vile. A beautiful young Black woman has
>> sex with the repulsively old and ugly Sean Penn character because ... why?
>> She's already ratted out her friends. So obsessed with a decrepit old
>> fascist that she just can't help herself. Blecch!
>> 
>> On Sun, Feb 1, 2026, 6:05 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>