Possible Interpretation of the title Vineland

[Laura Kelber]

No, I was talking about Lucille, one of three 14-year-old girls Profane and
his Puerto Rican friends pick up. Later he has sex with her, if I remember,
on a pool table. Look, this is the young Pynchon, his time at Cornell (in
the age of panty raids) followed by a stint in the Navy - not exactly plot
points in "The Making of a Feminist." So I agree with Joseph that some of
the frat boy tropes on women should be taken at face value. That's okay. He
was a product of his times who also happened to be brilliant. I loved V.
when I read it while in college and still like it, on the whole, though
clearly Pynchon was finding his voice, writing about stuff that privileged
white kids found edgy -- ooh, Harlem! - dabbling with being a "New York"
writer in cringy ways. GR is my desert island book, one of the greatest
books ever written, in my opinion. As readers, we have every right to point
out its flaws.

On Tue, Feb 3, 2026, 4:07 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Some questions are open-ended to prompt genuine discussion. And to show, in
> this case, that my expressed reading
> may be wrong and Laura's more right.
>
> Also, I did look it up....it was Paola and she was eighteen...
>
> On Mon, Feb 2, 2026 at 7:30 PM J Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
> > but why did he later say what he did?
> >
> > I do think she---was it Paola?---was not underage literally....??
> >
> > Hey Mark why don't you look it up before commenting. What you “think” is
> > irrelevant and often wrong. You want others to answer your?? Do your own
> > research.
> >
> > On Feb 1, 2026, at 1:08 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I love this counterpost, so to speak, to too-easy fanboys--like me....
> >
> > My history with this in the readings goes like this,.....I stopped out
> of a
> > solid reading of V in my youth
> > because of that scene in V. which Laura speaks of ......for me, and
> > everyone's mileage may vary, I later
> > came to see it as a scene Pynchon was not identifying with or wanted us
> to
> > but why did he later say what he did?
> > I do think she---was it Paola?---was not underage literally....??
> >
> > AND same with Bianca in GR, to me none of that stuff and her could be
> seen
> > as anything but bad shit.....and written to show that...
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 1, 2026 at 11:52 AM Laura Kelber <laurakelber at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Pynchon has some disturbing misogynistic tropes in his work. The first,
> > obviously is sex with the underaged - Lucille (?) in V, Bianca in GR. He
> > seems to have finally understood that this isn't cool in his later books
> > (unless I've missed anything). Then, the idea of women going weak in the
> > knees over men in uniform or cops or law enforcement men in general -
> > Frenesi, Maxine. As Mark mentions, the title of Plath's poem, dumbly
> taken
> > literally, probably encourages Pynchon and others in this trope. Third,
> > worst in some ways, is Woman as Betrayer of movements, of political
> > ideologies. I'm sure there may be some historical examples, particularly
> in
> > histories written by men, but offhand, I can't think of one. Certainly
> not
> > on the level of, say, the embedded stooges of COINTELPRO or the
> Pinkertons.
> > And in terms of family betrayal, it's usually the dad who walks out, the
> > son who betrays the father, at least in real life. So why Frenesi, why
> > Lake?
> >
> > As a side note, I found PTA's casual adaptation of two of these
> > misogynistic tropes particularly vile. A beautiful young Black woman has
> > sex with the repulsively old and ugly Sean Penn character because ...
> why?
> > She's already ratted out her friends. So obsessed with a decrepit old
> > fascist that she just can't help herself. Blecch!
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>