Line in Vineland on "Unspeakable"

Wed Jan 21 20:12:27 UTC 2026

overtones are often there too...

On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 3:08 PM Laura Kelber <laurakelber at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's been ages since I've read Vineland, but I think your reading of this
> passage is spot-on, Mack. It definitely fits Pynchon's puerile, but fun
> (soft-off, fecoventilatory collision, etc.) sense of humor.
>
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 10:58 AM mack devon <mackdevon74 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> To be fair, this is the same book that provided the passenger next to
>> Takeshi playing a game about the duality between the atomic bomb and sex
>> on
>> his Gameboy titled "Nukey" (a play on Nookie) lol.
>>
>> If not this, then what do you imagine the paragraph meaning in the scope
>> of
>> the story to this point, beyond just this metaphorical (maybe) submarine's
>> name and intention? Not to be too much of a bother, obviously I would
>> prefer not to be racking my mind for a day straight on a couple of lines,
>> but it comes out of nowhere, with nothing before or after bearing any
>> relation.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 9:55 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > No. But all undertones might work in Pynchon but this is too literal and
>> > not meaningful enough for Pynchon imo.
>> >
>> > Check all the older and psychological means of Pynchon but you think
>> > you’ve got it so go with it.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 9:04 AM mack devon <mackdevon74 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I appreciate both responses, but I'm more searching for the literal
>> event
>> >> within this page of Vineland. With these variations of the word
>> Unspeakable
>> >> that Mark has shared (Inexpressible, Wicked, Return of the Repressed)
>> and
>> >> Hubshrauber's "Usually, the Unspeakable is below the surface," the
>> context
>> >> of unrequited love (or lust) between Takeshi and DL by this point, the
>> >> reference to Love Boat, and the rising, then sinking at
>> unfulfillment...I'm
>> >> still leaning towards believing this is a schoolboy style joke about an
>> >> erection written just a little bit more eloquently than usual. I'm just
>> >> wondering if this is your takeaway from this event within the book, not
>> >> necessarily just the dissection of Pynchon and the word Unspeakable.
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 8:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> The phrase *"The Unspeakable"* in English carries a fascinating
>> >>> duality: it refers to both the *divine* (that which is too glorious
>> for
>> >>> words) and the *diabolical* (that which is too horrific to name). Its
>> >>> history reflects a shift from religious awe to psychological horror
>> and the
>> >>> modern "uncanny."
>> >>> 1. Etymological Origin and History
>> >>>
>> >>> The word *unspeakable* emerged in Middle English around *1400*. Its
>> >>> meaning has evolved through two primary lenses:
>> >>>
>> >>>    -
>> >>>
>> >>>    *The Ineffable (c. 1400):* Originally, it meant "inexpressible" or
>> >>>    "too great for words." This was often used in a religious context
>> to
>> >>>    describe the glory of God or the "Unspeakable Being."
>> >>>    -
>> >>>
>> >>>    *The Wicked (Mid-15th Century):* By the mid-1400s, the meaning
>> >>>    shifted toward "indescribably bad or wicked." It became a way to
>> categorize
>> >>>    crimes or entities so heinous that naming them would be a secondary
>> >>>    violation of morality.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>    For Freud, the Unspeakable was the content in his concept of The
>> >>>    Uncanny. Simplified, The Unspeakable is the 'return of the
>> repressed' --a
>> >>>    phrase P uses somewhere, I believe, or at least a concept he uses
>> fer sure..
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 8:03 AM Hübschräuber via Pynchon-l <
>> >>> pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Usually, the Unspeakable is below the surface...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The title of Thomas Merton's collection of essay "Raids on the
>> >>>> Unspeakable" (1966) comes to mind, which was inspired by T.S. Eliot's
>> >>>> description of poetry in "East Coker" as a "raid on the
>> inarticulate".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://merton.org/ITMS/Seasonal/36/36-4Labrie.pdf
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I only know Merton through Jim Douglass' "JFK and the Unspeakable"
>> >>>> (2008).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Douglass writes:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -- "The Unspeakable" is a term Thomas Merton coined at the heart of
>> the
>> >>>> sixties after JFK’s assassination—in the
>> >>>> midst of the escalating Vietnam War, the nuclear arms race, and the
>> >>>> further assassinations of Malcolm X, Martin
>> >>>> Luther King, and Robert Kennedy. In each of those soul-shaking events
>> >>>> Merton sensed an evil whose depth
>> >>>> and deceit seemed to go beyond the capacity of words to describe.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "One of the awful facts of our age," Merton wrote in 1965, "is the
>> >>>> evidence that [the world] is stricken indeed,
>> >>>> stricken to the very core of its being by the presence of the
>> >>>> Unspeakable." The Vietnam War, the race to a
>> >>>> global war, and the interlocking murders of John Kennedy, Malcolm X,
>> >>>> Martin Luther King, and Robert Kennedy
>> >>>> were all signs of the Unspeakable. It remains deeply present in our
>> >>>> world. As Merton warned, "Those who are at
>> >>>> present so eager to be reconciled with the world at any price must
>> take
>> >>>> care not to be reconciled with it under
>> >>>> this particular aspect: as the nest of the Unspeakable. This is what
>> >>>> too few are willing to see."
>> >>>> When we become more deeply human, as Merton understood the process,
>> the
>> >>>> wellspring of our compassion
>> >>>> moves us to confront the Unspeakable. --
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Unspeakable/index.pdf
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Gesendet mit Proton Mail: Ein sicherer E-Mail-Dienst.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> mack devon <mackdevon74 at gmail.com> schrieb am Dienstag, 20. Januar
>> >>>> 2026 um 18:04:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > Page 174 I've been stuck on for a little while. The book normally
>> >>>> stays
>> >>>> > pretty literal with its depictions, oftentimes getting a bit tricky
>> >>>> with
>> >>>> > what to take as metaphor or not. This is my 2nd read-through, I
>> must
>> >>>> not
>> >>>> > have thought too much of this my first time around. Anyways, around
>> >>>> early
>> >>>> > page 174, after the Thanatoid introduction and DL & Takeshi explore
>> >>>> > their village, a paragraph pops up that I'm still confused with.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > With a little context:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > "Yep, one foolish mistake, now I'm payin' it off for the rest of my
>> >>>> life."
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > "Only for the rest of mine, angel!" as up out of a calm and sunny
>> >>>> ocean
>> >>>> > the killer sub Unspeakable briefly poked its periscope, eyeballed
>> >>>> their
>> >>>> > vessel, ascertained that it was not the Love Boat, and withdrew.
>> But
>> >>>> they
>> >>>> > were learning, together, slowly, how to take evasive action, and at
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> > moment it was down through an austere maze of Shade Creek alleyways
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> > vacant lots for an extended breakfast and another day's business.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Now, I've got a couple guesses as to this Unspeakable passage, as
>> I'm
>> >>>> > almost certain it's not meant to be taken literally (unless in
>> >>>> reference to
>> >>>> > the men after Takeshi currently spying...but that's way off it
>> seems.)
>> >>>> > There's a very likely chance this is not in reference to an actual
>> >>>> Killer
>> >>>> > Sub on the prowl.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > 1. Could this be a classic Pynchon erection joke meant to reference
>> >>>> > Takeshi's lust towards DL being unfulfilled due to her lack of
>> desire
>> >>>> & her
>> >>>> > contract? The Unspeakable being The Unspeakable Erection, poking
>> out,
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> > withdrawing when not encountering a Love Boat. I feel like there
>> >>>> might be
>> >>>> > some old-school slang for Unspeakable/unmentionable wrt a penis,
>> but
>> >>>> I'm
>> >>>> > too young to know. (This is the most likely option to me.)
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > 2. Could this be just a strange reference to Thanatoids spying on
>> the
>> >>>> duo,
>> >>>> > noticing that they aren't in love, but rather that they're truly
>> >>>> partners?
>> >>>> > (Very unlikely, just made up to not have to 100% align myself with
>> >>>> Erection
>> >>>> > Theory.)
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > This is my first post here, I wanted to discuss this topic as I
>> >>>> haven't
>> >>>> > seen these lines discussed anywhere, I hope I formatted this well
>> >>>> enough.
>> >>>> > --
>> >>>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> --
>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>
>