Line in Vineland on "Unspeakable"

[Mark Kohut]

What you noticed here, of course, is that the narrator created this sex
metaphor--
read literally that penis came out stiff---partly due to the mindset of
those involved
or one of them, at least.

I think P used such a cute but Pretentious metaphor----Unspeakable did not
need to
be capitalized for the same sexual meaning, for one thing but IT is because
of Western historical
meanings....a lot of them......

but the Platonic, spiritual relationship DL wants---speaking of your
laudable exploration of Mindsets  here--
is a different kind from the West's basically. From Freud's......which was
so penis-centered that
as presented here would have destroyed the spiritual....we can remember
here how influenced Pynchon was
by Freud (and Jung)....Norman O. Brown's pushing-Freud-beyond-his limits
lay behind GR it has been demonstrated
as has Freudian trained Erich Fromm.....

And DL here reminds me of Pynchon's possible turn---if he wasn't there
earlier toward the spiritual East of Tibetan
Buddhism....something from the East appears in many later novels.....(in
fact,in Inherent Vice suggesting it hit him
early if stuff like that in that 60s novel tracks with his life...

Did I post that I was reminded in the new Peter Matthiessen bio that
Pynchon blurbed The Snow Leopard, Matthiessen's
spiritual quest Eastward.....

On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 3:43 PM mack devon <mackdevon74 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you everyone, I appreciate the help. I've been doing rereads of the
> lighter-in-size Pynchon works and trying to break apart sections to truly
> get into the mindsets of characters, visualize the environments as verbatim
> to the page, immerse myself in the book as much as I can, (with this reread
> specifically I sought out to finally understand the Karmic Balancing act by
> Takeshi and the Thanatoids in general...skimmed Wayyyyy over it my first
> time around because I wanted more of the Frenesi mystery...and more Zoyd
> lol.) Thank you again.
>
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 3:33 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From an online slang dictionary:
>>
>>
>> At its core, Unspeakable is a catch-all term for anything that is too
>> disturbing <https://www.fastslang.com/disturbing> or controversial to be
>> discussed in polite society <https://www.fastslang.com/in-polite-society>.
>> This can include everything from extreme acts of violence and depravity to
>>  taboo <https://www.fastslang.com/taboo> sexual practices and illegal
>> activities. The very nature of Unspeakable means that it is
>> <https://www.fastslang.com/that-it-is> difficult to define with any
>> degree of specificity <https://www.fastslang.com/specificity>, as it
>> encompasses such a wide range of topics and behaviors.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 3:17 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree too for what it’s worth but with overtones.
>>> “Return of the repressed” is one I mentioned.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2026 at 3:13 PM Mike Weaver via Pynchon-l <
>>> pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mack,
>>>> Given DL and Takeshi's no sex deal, your surmise rings true,
>>>> unspeakable
>>>> because evasive action is the only way for them to keep going, to talk
>>>> about the issue would likely erode the deal. I wouldn't call it a joke,
>>>> more a skit, just a good humoured take on a tension in their
>>>> relationship.
>>>>
>>>> No need to over intellectualise it - it's just a couple of kids trying
>>>> to get by.
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On 20/01/2026 17:04, mack devon wrote:
>>>> > Page 174 I've been stuck on for a little while. The book normally
>>>> stays
>>>> > pretty literal with its depictions, oftentimes getting a bit tricky
>>>> with
>>>> > what to take as metaphor or not. This is my 2nd read-through, I must
>>>> not
>>>> > have thought too much of this my first time around. Anyways, around
>>>> early
>>>> > page 174, after the Thanatoid introduction and DL & Takeshi explore
>>>> > their village, a paragraph pops up that I'm still confused with.
>>>> >
>>>> > With a little context:
>>>> >
>>>> > *"Yep, one foolish mistake, now I'm payin' it off for the rest of my
>>>> life."*
>>>> >
>>>> > *"Only for the rest of mine, angel!" as up out of a calm and sunny
>>>> ocean
>>>> > the killer sub Unspeakable briefly poked its periscope, eyeballed
>>>> their
>>>> > vessel, ascertained that it was not the Love Boat, and withdrew. But
>>>> they
>>>> > were learning, together, slowly, how to take evasive action, and at
>>>> the
>>>> > moment it was down through an austere maze of Shade Creek alleyways
>>>> and
>>>> > vacant lots for an extended breakfast and another day's business.*
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Now, I've got a couple guesses as to this Unspeakable passage, as I'm
>>>> > almost certain it's not meant to be taken literally (unless in
>>>> reference to
>>>> > the men after Takeshi currently spying...but that's way off it seems.)
>>>> > There's a very likely chance this is not in reference to an actual
>>>> Killer
>>>> > Sub on the prowl.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > 1. Could this be a classic Pynchon erection joke meant to reference
>>>> > Takeshi's lust towards DL being unfulfilled due to her lack of desire
>>>> & her
>>>> > contract? The Unspeakable being The Unspeakable Erection, poking out,
>>>> and
>>>> > withdrawing when not encountering a Love Boat. I feel like there
>>>> might be
>>>> > some old-school slang for Unspeakable/unmentionable wrt a penis, but
>>>> I'm
>>>> > too young to know. (This is the most likely option to me.)
>>>> >
>>>> > 2. Could this be just a strange reference to Thanatoids spying on the
>>>> duo,
>>>> > noticing that they aren't in love, but rather that they're truly
>>>> partners?
>>>> > (Very unlikely, just made up to not have to 100% align myself with
>>>> Erection
>>>> > Theory.)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > This is my first post here, I wanted to discuss this topic as I
>>>> haven't
>>>> > seen these lines discussed anywhere, I hope I formatted this well
>>>> enough.
>>>> > --
>>>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>> --
>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>>
>>>