Bleeding Edge's pear tree....yes?

[Mark Kohut]

If, among other things, this is saying that Pynchon in Vineland and
everywhere is leaps above The Nix I will only agree....

On Mon, Sep 14, 2026 at 10:21 AM Corbeau Castrum <filsducorbeau at pm.me>
wrote:

> I think that's accurate to a degree, and maybe I just really love
> Pynchon's writing and worldview, but to me The Nix really just takes a big,
> apolitical shit on countercultural resistance, whereas in Vineland—and
> Inherent Vice too—there's a mix of real love amidst the bitterness,
> sadness, and critique.
> On Monday, September 14th, 2026 at 13:03, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I read Nixon's novel as not unlike Vineland. Why the sixties failed...
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2026 at 6:54 AM Corbeau Castrum <filsducorbeau at pm.me>
> wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify, I only mentioned the Weather Underground—in particular,
>> Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn—as examples of sincere activists whose more
>> pacific actions and work (teaching, legal aid) extend from both before (at
>> least since 1965) and long after (until present day) in a variety of forms,
>> and that they do not feel obliged to apologize for their participation in
>> various countercultural movements of resistance. If we need another example
>> of a (less problematc) 60s activist who remains sincere and committed to a
>> New Left-influenced vision of politics, we can talk about Bernie Sanders.
>> Although not exactly an activist, I would even say that Pynchon is someone
>> who remains true to a certain spirit of the 60s, which Joanna Freer
>> discusses (in Thomas Pynchon and the American Counterculture).
>>
>> As I understand it, Nathan Hill's novel is deeply critical of 60s
>> activism, which it characterizes as a volunteerist media spectacle that
>> lacked any serious concrete political convictions and did more harm than
>> good.
>>
>> The free-indirect statement, that "The only thing less popular than the
>> war in those days was the anti-war movement", is affirmed by both a
>> dramatic re-telling of the 68 Chicago protests, by (fictional) Walter
>> Cronkite's reflections on those protests, and by the narrative's final
>> revelation (spoilers!): that the protests are primarily amplified and
>> encouraged by a police informant turned advertising executive
>> (Sebastian/Guy Periwinkle) who is also the architect of the very news
>> story/controversy which brings Samuel Andresen-Anderson (main character)
>> into contact with his long-lost mother (the narrative's fundamental driving
>> quest/investigation) and assures both the media and political victory of a
>> Bush/Trump right-wing politician.
>>
>> Ultimately, I think that The Nix does not completely adopt this very
>> negative attitude towards the counterculture (Allen Ginsberg is written
>> about fondly), but the extent of its resistance to this perspective is
>> Samuel saying, "I'll need to give this some thought" (601). More
>> sophisticated, theoretically serious, and politically committed
>> perspectives about the 60s (such as those offered by Mr Ayers in Fugitive
>> Days and in Public Enemy) are completely omitted by Hill. Indeed, the
>> novel's premise (that a 60s radical terrorist has attacked a rightwing
>> politician) is deeply reminiscent of Hillary Clinton's attacks on Obama for
>> cavorting with Ayers on an education board in Chicago (which is the
>> founding conflict/event of Public Enemy, see a reading of it here:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRKRHz_FsZg).
>> "'Radical hippie prostitute teacher blinds Gov. Packer in vicious
>> attack!' [...] Comparisons are made with the Weather Underground and the
>> Black Panthers" (12).
>>
>> Why does Hill leave out a perspective that is not utterly negative about
>> the counterculture? My hypothesis: he is attempting to register the
>> deepening defeat of the organized American Left ever since then, its sense
>> of pessimism and loss. But!!! He does so in a way that also erases the
>> good, productive things and perspectives produced by the movements of the
>> era, thus trivializing and rendering illegitimate or at least farcical any
>> more profound critique of contemporary American society that affirms its
>> lineage with the 60s. In my opinion, a better novel, one that had more
>> respect for and fidelity to its historical subject matter, would actually
>> stage serious competing visions of the 60s against each other, rather than
>> a mainstream neoliberalized critique vs advertising executive
>> pessimism/nihilism.
>>
>> I will leave the novel's utter absence of interest in the Black Freedom
>> Movement for another time.
>>
>> As concerns the question of how to define or understand this time period,
>> Fredric Jameson has a great essay (from that without apology collection)
>> called "Periodizing the 60s." (Long story short, any form of periodization
>> abusive/arbitrary and yet we are obliged to do it anyways.) I personally go
>> for a rather capacious definition, from 1954 (Brown v Board of Education
>> decision) to 1975 (official end of the Vietnam War), which captures the
>> heights of both internal and external struggles against colonization.
>>
>> On Monday, September 14th, 2026 at 11:45, Mark Kohut <
>> mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I, by the way and who cares? defined the sixties for my class as
>> > 1959---Howl
>> > event to the standard cliched Altamont in 1969.....
>> >
>> >
>> > -
>> >
>> > the year 1959 marked the commercial release of the *Howl and Other
>> Poems*
>> > spoken-word album by Fantasy Records.
>> > Boing Boing
>> >
>> > -
>> >
>> > *The Big Table Reading:* Key recordings on the album stemmed from a
>> > legendary live benefit performance in Chicago on January 29, 1959,
>> > organized to support *Big Table*—a literary magazine launched after
>> > censorship suppressed the *Chicago Review*.
>> > YouTube
>> >
>> > -
>> >
>> > *Cultural Legacy:* The 1959 audio release cemented the poem's transition
>> > from a localized underground manifesto into a permanent fixture of
>> American
>> > countercultural history, capturing Ginsberg’s distinct, impassioned
>> vocal
>> > delivery.
>> >
>> > *The Altamont Free Concert (1969)*
>> >
>> > *The End of an Era:* Alongside three accidental deaths, the violence and
>> > chaos were captured on film in the documentary *Gimme Shelter*,
>> solidifying
>> > Altamont in cultural memory as "the day the '60s died" and the tragic
>> > antithesis of Woodstock's peace-and-love ideal.
>> >
>> > The major histories I used, there are many others I don't know,. did
>> not go
>> > into the seventies. That doesn't mean your definition is incorrect, just
>> > more original than most which is not surprising since official histories
>> > are often not that original in their thesis...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2026 at 5:30 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I have read Nathan Hill's novel, the NIX....for him, thru Alice, the
>> > > sixties
>> > > end earlier and for Alice, she starts becoming the satirized person
>> Hill
>> > > makes her by the time of the Weather Underground.....THAT was
>> underground
>> > > until the bombings.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Sep 14, 2026 at 5:23 AM Mike Weaver <mike.weaver at zen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> History as comprehended does not respect chronological decades or
>> > >> centuries - the 60s lasted from 1956 until 1973. The Weather
>> Underground
>> > >> were very much a part of the 60s. Their trajectory only makes sense
>> as
>> > >> part of the history of the movements which started in the early 1960s
>> > >> and was over by the mid 70s. They were an ending not a beginning.
>> > >>
>> > >> On 14/09/2026 01:46, Mark Kohut wrote:
>> > >> > A venn diagram of our reading with our concerns would overlap how
>> > >> much?.....
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The WEather Underground were not until the 60s were as good as
>> > >> > over...1969.....THEY and their violence was
>> > >> > NOT a part of the sixties.....it was the violence against
>> them....see
>> > >> > sixties historians like Gitlin, O'Neill...
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The Weather Underground are the mustard in one sense....
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The mustard plant is a BAD SEED.....(see book allusion).....the
>> mustard
>> > >> > plant is a home-grown metaphor....
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Alice is so unrliable a narrator about the sixties---LOOK how Hill
>> > >> > characterizes her.....as bad as the middle class
>> > >> > that goes on Nation cruises and thinks they can see politics
>> > >> > right....Limousine liberals....those others you wrote of here....
>> > >> >
>> > >> > CC" The problem with mustard is that you can't just chop it down.
>> The
>> > >> seeds
>> > >> > can last for years. It will always come back. You have to cut it
>> out
>> > >> > completely. You have to cut it out by the roots" (388).
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Where does mustard come from? can't just chop it down like a cherry
>> > >> tree
>> > >> > one must get it out by the roots....like a cancer in the body
>> > >> > politic...the culture
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Another invasive species, like the pear, from the East....
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Wild mustard plants originated in the Mediterranean region and
>> parts of
>> > >> > Western Asia, where they grew as native weeds before being
>> gathered and
>> > >> > cultivated by ancient civilizations.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > -
>> > >> >
>> > >> > *Earliest Cultivation:* Archaeological evidence indicates that
>> > >> > white (*Sinapis
>> > >> > alba*), brown (*Brassica juncea*), and black mustard (*Brassica
>> > >> nigra*)
>> > >> > were cultivated in the Middle East, ancient Egypt, the Indus
>> > >> Valley, and
>> > >> > China over 4,000 to 5,000 years ago.
>> > >> > -
>> > >> >
>> > >> > *Spread to Europe:* Greek and Roman traders and conquerors helped
>> > >> spread
>> > >> > mustard seeds across Europe, where Romans developed the practice of
>> > >> > crushing the seeds and mixing them with unfermented grape juice
>> > >> (*mustum*)
>> > >> > to create a paste similar to modern table mustard.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Sun, Sep 13, 2026 at 8:25 PM Corbeau Castrum via Pynchon-l <
>> > >> > pynchon-l at waste.org> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> On the topic of the use of the language of colonization for
>> plants,
>> > >> Nathan
>> > >> >> Hill's narrator deploys it in The Nix (2015) to speak about the
>> > >> dangers of
>> > >> >> an aggressive mustard plant. (This is not directly Pynchon, but
>> Hill is
>> > >> >> compared to Pynchon (as well as DFW and John Irving) in the first
>> blurb
>> > >> >> inside the novel, and then the novel's cover also uses the exact
>> same
>> > >> >> fucking font as Gravity's Rainbow's cover (and incidentally an
>> edition
>> > >> of
>> > >> >> the French translation of The Rainbow by DH Lawrence).
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> "The problem was that they grew so quickly they stole sunlight
>> from
>> > >> other
>> > >> >> ground plants, including young trees. They also had no natural
>> > >> >> predators—the local deer population ate everything but the
>> mustard,
>> > >> leaving
>> > >> >> it free to colonize. It also produced a chemical that killed off
>> > >> bacteria
>> > >> >> in the soil that other plants needed for growth. A perfect
>> botanical
>> > >> >> terror, in other words" (384).
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> The character most interested in the dangers of these mustard
>> plants,
>> > >> >> Alice, is a former "hippie" (the novel's characterization) turned
>> > >> middle
>> > >> >> class homeowner, and indeed "all her former radical energies now
>> poured
>> > >> >> into things like selecting the perfect pendant lamps, or
>> achieving the
>> > >> >> ideal kitchen work flow [...]" (384). But this is not so bad, the
>> > >> narrator
>> > >> >> continues, even if Alice feels guilty: "That by choosing a few
>> very
>> > >> private
>> > >> >> concerns and pouring herself into them, she had never felt so
>> expanded.
>> > >> >> That, paradoxically, narrowing her concerns had made her *more*
>> > >> capable of
>> > >> >> love and generosity and empathy and, yes, even peace and justice"
>> > >> (385).
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Even though Alice has "sold out," her new, more concrete
>> perspective
>> > >> (less
>> > >> >> floating in the abstractions of 60s hyped-up polemical
>> denunciations of
>> > >> >> American empire) allows her to realize that the anti-war movement
>> was
>> > >> >> itself deeply misguided:
>> > >> >> "They never saw how their resistance had begun to look comical.
>> They
>> > >> were
>> > >> >> beaten by the cops and the public cheered. They thought they were
>> > >> changing
>> > >> >> the world and what they did was help get Nixon elected. They found
>> > >> Vietnam
>> > >> >> intolerable, but their answer was to become intolerable
>> themselves.
>> > >> >> [paragraph break]
>> > >> >> The only thing less popular than the war in those days was the
>> anti-war
>> > >> >> movement.
>> > >> >> [paragraph break]
>> > >> >> This truth was obvious, though none of them saw it, convinced as
>> they
>> > >> were
>> > >> >> of their own righteousness" (386).
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> The final lines of this chapter (and section), two pages away,
>> are as
>> > >> >> follows: "The problem with mustard is that you can't just chop it
>> > >> down. The
>> > >> >> seeds can last for years. It will always come back. You have to
>> cut it
>> > >> out
>> > >> >> completely. You have to cut it out by the roots" (388).
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Underneath these lines I scrawled (I can hear my
>> booking-publishing
>> > >> mother
>> > >> >> gasping), "mustard, mustard gas, colonizer, fascism, vietnam agent
>> > >> orange"
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> In short, Hill's narrator has taken the language of 60s discourse
>> and
>> > >> >> applied it to a more ecological concern. Clearly the colonial
>> metaphor
>> > >> is
>> > >> >> supposed to amplify our understanding of the intensity of the
>> mustard
>> > >> >> problem, but working our way backwards, it's not clear what
>> pulling out
>> > >> >> mustard from the roots means for either anti-colonial/anti-war
>> > >> struggles or
>> > >> >> our understanding of the 60s.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> And, just as in my reading (!) of American Pastoral, there is a
>> clear
>> > >> >> dialogical asymmetry. Sure, these accusations about the
>> counterculture
>> > >> and
>> > >> >> the anti-war movement can ring true to certain ears, yes young
>> people
>> > >> like
>> > >> >> to virtue signal, yes concrete political action is better than
>> > >> disconnected
>> > >> >> abstract symbolism (I am reminded of "Only a Fool Would Say That,"
>> > >> Steely
>> > >> >> Dan's response to John Lennon's "Imagine"), but the perspective of
>> > >> sincere
>> > >> >> 60s radicals (think of those wily Weather Underground folks), who
>> > >> continue
>> > >> >> to engage with the period "without apology" (also the title of a
>> 1984
>> > >> >> Fredric Jameson-edited issue of Social Text), is notably absent
>> from
>> > >> the
>> > >> >> novel. A covertly tendentious portrayal/memory of the 60s,
>> n'est-ce
>> > >> pas?
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> On Sunday, September 13th, 2026 at 20:48, Mark Kohut <
>> > >> mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> > >> >> wrote:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>> *Official Findings:* The 9/11 Commission, as well as subsequent
>> > >> thorough
>> > >> >>> reviews by the CIA inspector general and the Commission’s
>> executive
>> > >> >>> director (Philip Zelikow), investigated these theories and found
>> *no
>> > >> >>> evidence* that the CIA ever attempted to recruit Hazmi and
>> Mihdhar, or
>> > >> >> that
>> > >> >>> they were acting as intelligence assets. Instead, the breakdown
>> was
>> > >> >>> attributed to severe bureaucratic silos, poor information
>> sharing, and
>> > >> >>> institutional incompetence rather than a secret operational
>> > >> partnership.
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2026 at 12:12 PM Joseph Tracy <
>> coypoet at mailfence.com>
>> > >> >> wrote:
>> > >> >>>> 2 more 9-11 hijackers identified recently as CIA recruits.
>> Congress
>> > >> >>>> owned by genocidal foreign government, war on Spanish speaking
>> native
>> > >> >>>> Americans, water seized by ICE-y advocates of technofascism,
>> > >> Haaretz
>> > >> >>>> reveals that Netanyahu was clearly warned about Hamas action,
>> both
>> > >> >>>> parties supporting murderous policies in the middle east, wall
>> street
>> > >> >>>> buying single family homes everywhere. Seems like one 9-11 after
>> > >> >>>> another, perpetrators never apprehended.
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>> I know nothing about Callery pears but plenty about european
>> > >> >>>> colonialism and there is some resemblance to invasive species.
>> We
>> > >> have
>> > >> >> 3
>> > >> >>>> highly aggressive invasive plants here in Vermont that are
>> locally
>> > >> >>>> problematic , 2 of which I have spent many dayys trying to
>> remove
>> > >> >>>> completely out of my large vegetable and flower garden. These
>> plants
>> > >> >>>> are in much of new England and really do a lot of damage.
>> People who
>> > >> >>>> steal other people's lands, resources and freedom always tell
>> > >> >> themselves
>> > >> >>>> it is for the best and pride themselves on how tough and smart
>> they
>> > >> >> and
>> > >> >>>> their weapons are , how savage, violent and worthless those
>> whose
>> > >> >> lands
>> > >> >>>> they take by violent savagery. At least Callery pears have no
>> > >> drones,
>> > >> >>>> missiles, AI targeting tech, bullets. Just seeds.
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>> Colonialism is rooted in the lie that mass murder and theft are
>> > >> an
>> > >> >>>> inevitable product human nature and Divine will even though no
>> > >> >> cultures
>> > >> >>>> accept that they should be destroyed thereby and no religions
>> endorse
>> > >> >>>> murder or theft. I do not see Trump as aberrant in the history
>> of
>> > >> US
>> > >> >>>> colonialism. . "In 1918 46 percent of Indians nationwide were
>> > >> infected
>> > >> >>>> with Trachoma, and 36 percent with tuberculosis, 27 percent of
>> Indian
>> > >> >>>> children died before age 3." (The Chosen and the Damned", by
>> David
>> > >> >>>> Silverman.) This is a tiny glimpse into hundreds of years in
>> which
>> > >> the
>> > >> >>>> government and popular US cruelty and violence was in many ways
>> > >> greater
>> > >> >>>> than right now. The difference is that now we are all potential
>> > >> targets
>> > >> >>>> of this insatiable appetite.
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>> Maybe it is just entropy. Maybe civilization just accelerates
>> > >> entropy
>> > >> >>>> by providing yachts and castles and private jets to its
>> management
>> > >> >>>> class. A nice thick insulation on the power lines, a proper
>> distance
>> > >> >>>> from the bullets. Maybe the endless betrayals are for our own
>> good.
>> > >> >>>> Maybe spring will always bring new life and hope. Maybe some are
>> > >> born
>> > >> >>>> to sweet delight and some are born to endless night. For me who
>> loves
>> > >> >> to
>> > >> >>>> eat peaches from China grown in my own garden, who loves to play
>> > >> music
>> > >> >>>> with friends and family, to make art from glass windows to ink
>> > >> >> drawings,
>> > >> >>>> and who has payed no war taxes for 25 years. The hard part is
>> to see
>> > >> >> how
>> > >> >>>> all this is affecting my children. How hard it has gotten to
>> hope
>> > >> for
>> > >> >> a
>> > >> >>>> good peaceable life.
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>> Should we find the counter-force and join up however we may, or
>> hope
>> > >> >> it
>> > >> >>>> all goes ... to that magical dream we call 'away'. Where on a
>> > >> gravity
>> > >> >>>> bound planet is 'away' ? Many seem to hope maybe it will all go
>> > >> away,
>> > >> >>>> wherever that is.
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>> I have been saying the same thing on the P-list for a long
>> time. The
>> > >> >>>> empire isn't changing for the better and both parties are in on
>> what
>> > >> is
>> > >> >>>> once again manifest in genocidal mass murder. I wish I had been
>> > >> wrong.
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>> On 9/12/26 1:30 PM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>> > >> >>>>> https://x.com/japan_nobunaga/status/2098819428263563329?s=20
>> > >> >>>>> --
>> > >> >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >> >>> --
>> > >> >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >> --
>> > >> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >> >>
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > --
>> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>> >
>>
>
>