Cuba

[Henry Musikar]

Seems most Koreans love their dictator; Chinese also. A-and 
Singapore is so nice and clean, I'm sure most of the citizens just 
love it! Ayatollah the truth. In fact, perhaps the contentment of the 
population is measure of the absolute power of a "benevolent" 
dicktater.

On 12 Apr 97 at 10:30, Paul Mackin <mackin at allware.com> wrote:

> Are there any p-listers in Cuba (folks with .cu country-codes)? When
> I was there 18 years ago there were a lot of English speakers. Good
> thing as my Spanish wasn't much. To some extent dictators are in the
> eye of the beholder. To the common people Fidel was not an
> oppressor. Intellectuals, rival politicians, and property owners
> might disagree. Certainly it never seemed like a police state. I
> remember during a newsreel in a movie theatre Castro's image came on
> the screen. There was some good natured jeering
>      P.
> 
> 
> ----------
> From: 	Mike Weaver[SMTP:pic at gn.apc.org]
> Sent: 	Friday, April 11, 1997 10:23 PM
> To: 	pynchon-l at waste.org
> Subject: 	Cuba
> 
> Davemarc wrote
> >Please.  Castro is a dictator. 
> 
> Tempting to start this  -"Is not" -but I think we can raise the
> level of debate a little higher.  What criteria do you use to define
> dictator?  When in one conversation, in Cuba, I described him as
> such someone said, "He's not a dictator he's a Leo"  He's
> intelligent, eloquent and forceful,  and until recently was
> consistently deferred to as the main speaker for the Cuban
> revolution.  This does not make him a dictator.  They were right, he
> has remained 'el jefe' not by force of arms but by power of
> personality and ability to articulate  the pride the Cubans have in
> their independence.
>  Before I discovered this list I spent most of my internet time
>  reading the
> Soc.culture.Cuba list,  the discussion place of a bunch of
> anti-Castroite Cubans,  mostly right wingers but also a steady
> minority of leftists as well.  Comparing the way they focussed on
> Castro to the way of the vast majority of Cubans I met was
> instructive.  The views of the SCC crowd range from yours to him
> being the devil incarnate.  On Cuba he just isn't that important and
> even the most vehement critics of the government over a certain age
> exempt him from their rage.  He personifies the ending of 500 years
> of colonial status.  (For some younger Cubans chafing at the
> restrictions imposed by both traditional attitudes and the effects
> of continuing US hostility he represents the limits on their freedom
> but this is personification rather than his responsibility)
> 
> 
>  >Since taking charge of Cuba he's been its
> >#1 Murderer, Persecutor, Censor, etc., by virtue of the fact that he's at
> >the top of the chain of command. 
> 
> You can hold that against any national leader.  The way both yours
> and my countries are run means substantial percentages of the
> population live nasty brutish and often short lives they have little
> chance of escaping, murdered, persecuted and/or utterly abused
> because of where they came from or where they want to go.   The U.S.
> has, since Castro and his fellow revolutionaries took power,  been
> involved in how many invasions of other nations?  Last year it was
> revealed that the reported massing of Iraqi troops on the Kuwaiti
> border which was the trigger for the Gulf War was total fabrication.
>  Six years too late for those poor sodding Iraqis slaughtered by
> your country's forces and their allies.  Compare that to Cuba's
> foreign policy,  supplying doctors, dentists, engineers, teachers
> u.s.w. to other third world nations, no strings attached,   and most
> notably a volunteer army to support the Angolans in repulsing the
> apartheid South African invasion.  
> 
> 
> 
> > That's not to say there haven't been
> >significant improvements in Cuba during his years in charge, and pressures
> >and threats against him and Cuba from other Cold Warriors, too.  But why
> >anyone who isn't under Castro's thumb would make excuses for
> >him--particularly in this day and age, when Castro could realistically
> >improve things for Cuba through reforms, possibly ensuring its stability
> >after his physical death--is beyond me.  
> >
> 
>  In 1985 the Cuban government  (not Castro alone) started a process
>  called
> the Era of Rectification,  in  which the power of the bureaucracy
> was challenged,  new representative levels of government were
> created,  state farms turned into worker's co-ops,  workplaces
> tightened up efficiency and the surplus workers seconded to
> 'microbrigades'  to build schools, hospitals and housing... This
> process of reform was cut short by the loss of trade when the
> Soviets collapsed.  The response to the crisis that followed
> included legalising the dollar,  opening up to tourism and allowing
> the creation of small scale private enterprises, a level of industry
> which had been banned in 1968. Food and craft stalls,  bike repair
> shops and parks,  one man I worked with was reknowned for the wine
> he made and sold.  What reforms would you like to see?  Presumably
> one's that would make Cuba conform to your idea of what a democratic
> country should be.  Given the way your government has tightened the
> screws since 1991 I think it is rubbish talking about
>   >particularly in this day and age
> It is clear that the US govt will accept nothing but the complete
> capitulation of Cuban communism to US capitalist power.  Hardly a
> healthy climate for liberalisation in Cuba is that?
> 
> Have you spent any time in Cuba recently?  Do you know anyone who
> has?  Not two or three weeks,   but long enough to lose your
> preconceptions and start getting through to the way the place really
> works.  A friend of mine who worked there for 18 months said anyone
> can have their prejudices confirmed if they go there for a short
> visit but the longer you stay the more you realise the wonderful
> complexity of the place both culturally and for its place in world
> history.  My three months - which was not spent on the tourist
> circuit, but among ordinary Cubans -  was barely adequate but I can
> confidently say that it is the most peaceful and amiable place I
> have ever been,  a view confirmed by friends much more travelled
> than myself,  and the idea of the people being under a dictator's
> thumb is quite laughable.  There is a standard joke which ends by
> saying of the Cuban people "...and they moan incessently about the
> government,  yet when Fidel speaks publically, they turn out in tens
> of thousands to listen and cheer Via Fidel,  Viva Che..."  Tis true,
> they do, and NOT because they have to. To repeat myself I am not
> claiming that Castro is a saint and Cuba a paradise and I am not
> trying to make excuses for the many wrongs and errors that have
> happened.  But compared to the track record of every capitalist
> countrys' rulers the Cuban government comes up smelling of roses. 
> Lets attend to the injustices of our own systems and not belittle
> the strengths and resilience of others.  If Cuban life was as
> terrible as the likes of its US critics made out the regime would
> have collapsed five years ago.  
> 
> Please excuse the length,  normal succinctness will be resumed ASAP
> Mike
> 
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> "...if you do not love words,  how will you love the communication?
>   How will you, forgive me my tropes, communicate the love?" 
> R. A. Lafferty
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

AsB4,
Henry Musikar

Keep cool, but care. -- TRP
Moderation in moderation. -- Husky Mariner