grgr (34): "the tower" (747)

[Can't Wait]

Thanks Joe.  It was the Hume Wittgenstein I'd spaced off.

m



--- Joe Rubalcaba <jrubalcaba at wga.org> wrote:
> Per your request:
> 
> Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant who was very rarely stable.
> Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could think you under
> the table.
> 
>  
> David Hume could out-consume Schoppenhauer and Hegel. 
> And Whittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as
> Schlegel. 
>  
> There's nothing Nieizsche couldn't teach 'ya 'bout the raising of
> the wrist.
> 
> Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed. 
>  
> John Stewart Mill, of his own free will On half a pint of shanty
> was
> particularly ill. Plato they say could stick it away, Half a crate
> of
> whiskey every day. 
>  
> Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle, And Hoppes was
> fond of his
> dram. And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart. 
> "I drink, therefore I am." 
>  
> Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed; 
> A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org
> [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org]On
> Behalf Of Can't Wait
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 1:25 PM
> To: Otto Sell; Mark Wright AIA; Lorentzen / Nicklaus
> Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org
> Subject: Re: grgr (34): "the tower" (747)
> 
> 
> 
> Otto fills the void:
> 
> 'If there's an overall "meaning" in the novel in question it seems
> to
> be to me: be kind to each other.'
> 
> If this is true, and I don't doubt it because I don't really know
> anything about the Rainbow, then at least we can be certain that
> Pynchon did not, at the time anyway, have a terribly deep
> understanding of Nietzsche, wiping out any possibility for him
> being
> a member of the Towering Elect, the ubermensch.  Yes, I assume that
> anybody who authentically (how's that!) comprehends Nietzsche
> agrees
> with him.
> 
> NIETZSCHE
> What?
> 
> PYNCHON
> We should all be kind to one another.
> 
> NIETZSCHE
> Why?
> 
> PYNCHON
> Because, um....that way....um....then, you see....kindness
> prevails...
> 
> NIETZSCHE
> I see.  So, you wouldn't much agree with my Zarathustra that man is
> something that must be overcome?
> 
> PYNCHON
> 'My Zarathustra'?  Who talks like that?
> 
> NIETZSCHE
> So that whole Christian dogma thing, it doesn't really bother you? 
> It doesn't ring false for you?  Doesn't seem fabricated?
> 
> PYNCHON
> Maybe.  But aren't kindness and Christianity two different things?
> 
> NIETZSCHE
> (pause)
> Well ya got me on that one....
> 
> Nietzsche of course also bowed at the altar of ellipses.  I wrote a
> novel called Ellipsis once.  Just a couple days ago I was trying to
> remember Python's drunken philosophy song.  I remember most of it,
> but I'd appreciate anybody hammering the whole thing out.
> 
> Regarding 'And a soul in every stone', I have meditated all morning
> on its meaning and discovered that Pynchon did not mean One thing
> by
> it, but many things at once, and nothing specific.  'What's
> something
> real cool sounding that can be interpreted in many different ways? 
> Oh here, this will work....'
> 
> m
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Otto Sell <o.sell at TELDA.NET> wrote:
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mark Wright AIA <mwaia at yahoo.com>
> > To: <lorentzen-nicklaus at t-online.de>
> > Cc: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 2:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: grgr (34): "the tower" (747)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Howdy
> > 
> > --- Otto Sell <o.sell at telda.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > There is a Hand to turn the time,
> > > Though thy Glass today be run,
> > > Till the Light that hath brought the Towers low
> > > Find the last poor Pret'rite one . . .
> > > Till the Riders sleep by ev'ry road,
> > > All through our crippl'd Zone,
> > > With a face on ev'ry mountainside,
> > > And a Soul in ev'ry stone. . . . (760)
> > >
> > > ....Übergangenen erreichen.
> > > (When the tower which represents the Elect is destroyed by
> > > lightning,
> > > the
> > > destroying effect is reversed to healing and now the healing
> > light
> > > can reach
> > > the Preterite) - what TRP again has is about is the reversal of
> > the
> > > binary oppositions.
> > 
> > <Oppositions shmoppositions.  This is an extraordinary post. 
> > Buried
> > <within a beautiful passage I have always read with a sense of
> > despair
> > <(even unto a sniffle and a tear or two when I'm especially
> > stressed
> > <that way) bears a seed of hope under this interpretation.  What
> a
> > <joyful discovery, Otto!
> > <
> > <How confident are you of your translation?  The word "Preterite"
> > <seems to force a Tarot gloss into Pynchonian territory
> > all-too-neatly.
> > <Does it really work or are you pushing the language a bit?  Is
> > there
> > <anything in your source about the Tarot which would give us a
> clue
> > as
> > <to who's souls end up imprisoned in those stones?
> > <
> > <Wonderful post, Otto.
> > <Mark
> > 
> > ----------- schnipp -----------
> > 
> > "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do
> for
> > your
> > country."
> > 
> > The reversed binaries are important, not the Tarot. The tower
> being
> > a
> > metaphor for the Elect is very old and goes back to old medieval
> > Europe when
> > the Castle Tower symbolized the power of Feudalism. The others
> were
> > living
> > in huts, or as I said in an earlier post, were sitting in the
> sump,
> > looking
> > up to the tower.
> > 
> > I thought the souls of the preterite, "second sheep" (GR, p. 3).
> If
> > the
> > Puritan Elect who say of themselves that they are saved (from the
> > beginning)
> > can be thrown down, if the Tower can be destroyed, then we, from
> > the very
> > beginning doomed Preterite, can have the hope of being saved.
> > 
> > And of the faces of mountainsides I always thought of Monument
> > Valley, the
> > giant Presidents' faces. Who are put into stone there? F****ing
> > encarta does
> > not give the names.
> > 
> > Every human is equally important - this is the "message" (if you
> > got a
> 
=== message truncated ===


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